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Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 711
Registered: 10-2013
Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Why did Rufus offer Lydia 4.000 pounds for the item worth 2.000 pounds?

I expect this to go quick.
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

4.000 = four thousand? or four point zero?
2.000 = two thousand? or two point zero?

Rufus = human adult male?
Lydia = human adult female?

pounds = currency? UK pounds sterling?
pounds = weight?
same for both instances of 'pounds'?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Post Number: 249
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 2:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the exact nature of the item relevant? Would it help to find out what kind of item it is? Or would it work just as well if it were a cell phone or an elephant?

Is this the time and place of this exchange relevant? Any relevant relationship between the two people?

Does Rufus expect Lydia to accept his offer? Does he think he will come out with more money/value as a result of the trade? Does Lydia think so? If an average person off the street met Lydia, would they make the same offer?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 712
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 2:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Psydkik:
4.000 = four thousand? This. or four point zero?
2.000 = two thousand? This. or two point zero?

Rufus = human adult male? Yes.
Lydia = human adult female? Yes.

pounds = currency? Yes. UK pounds sterling? Yes.
pounds = weight? No.
same for both instances of 'pounds'? Yes.

Alexanderhamilton:
Is the exact nature of the item relevant? Yes. Would it help to find out what kind of item it is? Yes. Or would it work just as well if it were a cell phone or an elephant? No.

Is this the time and place of this exchange relevant? Time - no, place - somehow. Any relevant relationship between the two people? No, just acquaitances.

Does Rufus expect Lydia to accept his offer? Yes. Does he think he will come out with more money/value as a result of the trade? No. Does Lydia think so? Assume yes. If an average person off the street met Lydia, would they make the same offer? No.
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 230
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 3:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this happening at an auction?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Post Number: 251
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 3:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this item smaller than an iPod? Could it fit in a microwave? Is it smaller than a human? Could it fit in a room? In a home?

Is it alive? It is made of organic material? Is it made of plastic? Metal? Fibers? Precious metals? Wood? Stone? Glass? Some combination of materials?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 3:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Balin:
Is this happening at an auction? No.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 715
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Alexanderhamilton:
Is this item smaller than an iPod? No. Could it fit in a microwave? Possibly. There are some that fit. Is it smaller than a human? Most of them are, but there are also bigger. Could it fit in a room? Yes. In a home? Yes.

Is it alive? No. It is made of organic material? Is it made of plastic? Metal? Fibers? Precious metals? Wood? Stone? Glass? Some combination of materials? This. There are several possibilities as to what they're made of.
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Post Number: 521
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 3:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If Rufus had offered 2.000 pounds, would Lydia have accepted the offer? What about if he'd offered 3.000 pounds?

Was Rufus happy to pay 4.000? Because to him, it was worth that much (finantially, sentimentally, or whyever)?

Was Lydia happy to part with it for 4.000? Because to her, it was worth less than that?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Psydkik:
If Rufus had offered 2.000 pounds, would Lydia have accepted the offer? Yes. What about if he'd offered 3.000 pounds? Yes.

Was Rufus happy to pay 4.000? He was indifferent. Because to him, it was worth that much (finantially, sentimentally, or whyever)? It was not worth more for Rufus than for any other person. "Financially" is OTRT, though.

Was Lydia happy to part with it for 4.000? Yes. Because to her, it was worth less than that? Yes, it was worth 2.000.
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 233
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 7:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was there something attached to the item worth 2K that was worth more? (For instance, a $2K painting in a more valuable frame)
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 8:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Balin:
Was there something attached to the item worth 2K that was worth more? (For instance, a $2K painting in a more valuable frame) No, but the item was indeed a painting.
Wizardofnz (Wizardofnz)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 9:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Rufus intend to do anything with the painting other than hang it on his wall?

Is re-selling relevant? Debt or payments to a third party relevant?

Is Rufus particularly wealthy?

Does the value of the painting change at all (e.g. a portrait of a famous or influential person who dies suddenly)?

Does the portrait somehow become more useful or urgently needed shortly before Rufus buys it?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 9:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wizardofnz:
Did Rufus intend to do anything with the painting other than hang it on his wall? Possibly, not relevant.

Is re-selling relevant? Debt or payments to a third party relevant? No to these.

Is Rufus particularly wealthy? Yes, at least enough to purchase pieces of art.

Does the value of the painting change at all (e.g. a portrait of a famous or influential person who dies suddenly)? No, the exact value of the painting is 2.000 and it does not change.

Does the portrait somehow become more useful or urgently needed shortly before Rufus buys it? No.
Wizardofnz (Wizardofnz)
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Post Number: 849
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 9:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, there's a reason Rufus would pay that much, but the average person off the street would not. I assume there's more to it than Rufus merely being wealthy...

Is he particularly keen to get his hands on a painting? This particular painting?

Does Rufus have any relevant knowledge about art or the painting's subject matter? About economics?

Does anything about Rufus' age, religion, address, occupation or hobbies matter?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 9:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wizardofnz:
So, there's a reason Rufus would pay that much, but the average person off the street would not. I assume there's more to it than Rufus merely being wealthy... Yes, your assumption is correct.

Is he particularly keen to get his hands on a painting? No. This particular painting? No. Good questions.

Does Rufus have any relevant knowledge about art or the painting's subject matter? Yes. About economics? Possibly.

Does anything about Rufus' age, religion, address, occupation or hobbies matter? Only his occupation.
Wizardofnz (Wizardofnz)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 10:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does his occupation involve art? Finance?

Does he know anything relevant about the artist of the painting? The subject of the painting? The history of the painting? The materials of the painting or the frame?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Post Number: 253
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Rufus' relevant knowledge in art? Or in the painting's subject matter?

Did Lydia paint the painting? Is the painting's original artist relevant? Age or the style of the painting relevant? If Lydia hired a forger to create an exact copy of the painting, would Rufus still be interested? If Lydia had offered Rufus a statue of an equal value, would he be interested?

Is the painting a portrait? A landscape? Is the exact subject matter relevant?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2013 - 10:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wizardofnz:

Does his occupation involve art? Finance? Both, more art than finance.

Does he know anything relevant about the artist of the painting? The subject of the painting? The history of the painting? The materials of the painting or the frame? Same answer to all: just enough to estimate its worth.

Alexanderhamilton:
Is Rufus' relevant knowledge in art? This. Or in the painting's subject matter?

Did Lydia paint the painting? No. Is the painting's original artist relevant? Only to determine its worth. Age or the style of the painting relevant? Ditto. If Lydia hired a forger to create an exact copy of the painting, would Rufus still be interested? Possibly, but unlikely. If Lydia had offered Rufus a statue of an equal value, would he be interested? Yes.

Is the painting a portrait? A landscape? Is the exact subject matter relevant? Not relevant.
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 12:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If the same painting had been sold by Joe, a random man from down the road, would Rufus still have been interested? Or was he particularly keen to buy from Lydia?

So he'd have been interested in a painting or a statue. What about if Lydia had offered him a bicycle of equal value, would he still have been interested in buying it for 4.000 pounds? Or a TV?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 8:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Psydkik:
If the same painting had been sold by Joe, a random man from down the road, would Rufus still have been interested? No. Or was he particularly keen to buy from Lydia? Yes. Good q.

So he'd have been interested in a painting or a statue. Yes, the puzzle works for any piece of art. What about if Lydia had offered him a bicycle of equal value, would he still have been interested in buying it for 4.000 pounds? No. Or a TV? No.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 2:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was his intent to give Lydia 4000 in a completely nonsuspicious manner? Did Lydia need the money for some cause? An operation?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Balin:
Was his intent to give Lydia 4000 in a completely nonsuspicious manner? If you mean making donation for her - no. But you may want to rephrase this question. Did Lydia need the money for some cause? Yes, but irrelevant. He would do this even if she did not need money. An operation?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 3:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Rufus' intention to overpay Lydia? Would he have paid 2000 pounds to Lydia for the painting? Would he have paid 4000 pounds to Random Joe for the painting?

Given his knowledge of art, was Rufus at least aware that he was overpaying for the painting? Would he have paid 50,000 pounds for it? Was 4,000 roughly what it was worth to him? If Lydia knew why Rufus wanted the painting would she have raised the price?
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 4:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there some money laundering going on?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 7:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Alexanderhamilton:
Was Rufus' intention to overpay Lydia? Yes. Would he have paid 2000 pounds to Lydia for the painting? No. Would he have paid 4000 pounds to Random Joe for the painting? No.

Given his knowledge of art, was Rufus at least aware that he was overpaying for the painting? Yes. Would he have paid 50,000 pounds for it? No. Was 4,000 roughly what it was worth to him? Yope. If Lydia knew why Rufus wanted the painting would she have raised the price? No and FA.

Psydkik:
Is there some money laundering going on? No.
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 8:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was my FA that Rufus "wanted" the painting? If Lydia knew Rufus' reason for buying the painting, would she still do it? Would Rufus' reason be considered immoral? Illegal? Morally praiseworthy?

If Lydia is just an acquaintance, is there a relevant third party? Is Rufus doing the transaction for their sake?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Alexanderhamilton:
Was my FA that Rufus "wanted" the painting? Yes. If Lydia knew Rufus' reason for buying the painting, would she still do it? Do what? Accept the price? Yes. But if she knew, then he would most likely not do it. Would Rufus' reason be considered immoral? Could be. Illegal? No. Morally praiseworthy? No.

If Lydia is just an acquaintance, is there a relevant third party? No. Is Rufus doing the transaction for their sake? No.
Wizardofnz (Wizardofnz)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 9:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he particularly interested in depriving Lydia of the painting (for whatever reason)?

Is he particularly interested in removing the painting from the premises?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - 9:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wizardofnz:
Is he particularly interested in depriving Lydia of the painting (for whatever reason)? No.

Is he particularly interested in removing the painting from the premises? No.
Psydkik (Psydkik)
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Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2013 - 10:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Rufus trying to impress Lydia? Does he want a relationship with her?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2013 - 10:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Psydkik:
Is Rufus trying to impress Lydia? No. Does he want a relationship with her? Yes, for svv of "relationship"
Wizardofnz (Wizardofnz)
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Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2013 - 9:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Professional relationship, of sorts? Did he wish to make further transactions with Lydia? Did he hope Lydia would want to make future transactions with him?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2013 - 9:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wizardofnz:
Professional relationship, of sorts? Yes. Did he wish to make further transactions with Lydia? YES! Did he hope Lydia would want to make future transactions with him? And yes. Why?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2013 - 10:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he trying to make Lydia think he does not know much about the value of art? Does he hope she will underestimate him in future? Is he hoping in the future to buy something off Lydia for much less than its value, thus making back more than 2000, which he would not get away with if Lydia knew he is an expert on art?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2013 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay:
Is he trying to make Lydia think he does not know much about the value of art? Yes. Does he hope she will underestimate him in future? Yes. Is he hoping in the future to buy something off Lydia for much less than its value, thus making back more than 2000, which he would not get away with if Lydia knew he is an expert on art? And yes.

There is a little bit missing, but I think it's enough for the

***********SPOILER************
Rufus, who is an art merchant, offered Lydia 4000 for the painting worth 2000. Lydia, not knowing much of art, hired the professional to tell her the true worth of the painting. She learned that the painting was really worth 2000. Rufus hoped that in future transactions she will not call for an expertise, but she will underestimate him and accept his offers. This way he wanted to buy some really precious paintings from her for very low prices.


Thanks for playing and congrats to Wiz and Enjay. And this is again based on a secondary thread in Agatha Christie's "Peril at End House".
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2013 - 10:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've read Peril at End House; now I remember. Very nice puzzle.
Wizardofnz (Wizardofnz)
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Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2013 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes, good puzzle. Thank goodness for Enjay; I was probably about 30 posts away from making that lateral leap :P
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2013 - 10:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Now that you say that, I've read it to and I remember that plot point but didn't realise that that was why the answer jumped to mind. Great puzzle, apologies for jumping in and solving it!
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2013 - 10:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No need to apologise. I'm happy it was solved, especially as the rest of my puzzles seem to be getting long. Feel invited to jump into my other puzzles and solve them as well.

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