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Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Post Number: 110
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Posted on Monday, November 11, 2013 - 9:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The detective TV show Monk features a lot of murderers with very lateral means and/or motives for their murders. Monk himself often uses lateral thinking methods to deduce who committed the murder. And occasionally the viewer will have to use lateral thinking as well. So I thought some episodes would make great lateral thinking puzzles, and this is the first of a series. This particular episode involves three instances of lateral thinking, two by characters and one by the viewer (or in this case, puzzle solver.) Parts I and II are by the characters, and you have to figure them out, but part III only required lateral thinking by the viewer. You probably won't be able to solve Part II until you make progress on Part I, but you can start cracking at Part III right away.

Here it goes.

I. Why did Tom kill Amanda after he ran a red light, then frame Howie for the crime?
II. How did Monk eventually prove that Tom was the murderer and was lying?
III. Howie had an airtight alibi that could have easily been corroborated, so why did he not provide it when interrogated by police?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, November 11, 2013 - 9:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I know this episode, so I'm going to sit this out out.
Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Monday, November 11, 2013 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tom = H/A/M?
Amanda = H/A/F?
Howie = H/A/M?

Did Tom and Amanda know each other? If so, are they related? married? in a relationship? friends? co-workers? acquaintances?
Did Amanda and Howie know each other? If so, are they related? married? in a relationship? friends? co-workers? acquaintances?
Did Howie and Tom know each other? If so, are they related? married? in a relationship? friends? co-workers? acquaintances?

Is the profession of any of them relevant?

Relevant how Tom killed Amanda?

Relevant how much time passed between Tom running the red light and killing Amanda? If so, less than a minute? less than an hour? less than two hours? more than that?

Was Amanda with Tom when he ran the red light?

Was Tom in a car when he ran the red light? on a motorbike? on a bike? in some other kind of vehicle? Relevant where he was going?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Post Number: 175
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Posted on Monday, November 11, 2013 - 10:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Okay, so we have:

- TOM (murderer - kills Amanda and frames Howie)
- AMANDA (victim - is killed by Tom)
- HOWIE (framed by Tom for the murder)

Right?
Are there more relevant people than these three (and the investigator)?


Would Tom have killed Amanda if he hadn't run the red light? Did he mean to kill her?

Was his motive jealousy? Money? Revenge? Anger? She knew too much? Or was somehow "in his way"?

Is the method of murder relevant? The scene of crime? Time of the crime?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Post Number: 112
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Posted on Monday, November 11, 2013 - 11:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tom = H/A/M?
Amanda = H/A/F?
Howie = H/A/M? Yes to all.

Did Tom and Amanda know each other? Yes If so, are they related? married? in a relationship? this is closest, but not exact. No to rest. friends? co-workers? acquaintances?
Did Amanda and Howie know each other? yes If so, are they related? married? in a relationship? friends? co-workers? acquaintances? this is closest
Did Howie and Tom know each other? no If so, are they related? married? in a relationship? friends? co-workers? acquaintances? So these don't apply.

Is the profession of any of them relevant? Howie and Amanda. Tom's specific occupation is irrelevant, but some detail of his work is relevant.

Relevant how Tom killed Amanda? Only that it was done in a way that would frame Howie.

Relevant how much time passed between Tom running the red light and killing Amanda? If so, less than a minute? less than an hour? less than two hours? more than that? Exact time is irrelevant, but it was shortly thereafter.

Was Amanda with Tom when he ran the red light? Yes

Was Tom in a car when he ran the red light? this, no to rest on a motorbike? on a bike? in some other kind of vehicle? Relevant where he was going? No

Okay, so we have:

- TOM (murderer - kills Amanda and frames Howie)
- AMANDA (victim - is killed by Tom)
- HOWIE (framed by Tom for the murder)

Right? Yes
Are there more relevant people than these three (and the investigator)? Yes


Would Tom have killed Amanda if he hadn't run the red light? No Did he mean to kill her? Yes

Was his motive jealousy? Money? Revenge? Anger? She knew too much? Or was somehow "in his way"? None of these.

Is the method of murder relevant? Only in that it was intended to frame Howie. The scene of crime? Time of the crime? No to rest.
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2013 - 8:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was this a crime of passion? Or carefully planned? Did he plan to frame Howie all along, or did that only enter in after the murder?

Further motive suggestions:
she had something he wanted?
She had something on him?
Self-defence?
Mental disorder?
Personal vendetta?
To protect someone else?
To otherwise help someone else?

Did he commit the murder seconds after running the red light? Minutes? Hours? Days?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2013 - 10:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Tom have a reason for framing Howie, other than just avoiding responsibility? Could he have framed someone else?
Was Howie's alibi immoral? criminal? Would he have had to admit something he was ashamed of if he had provided the alibi?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Post Number: 113
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Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2013 - 3:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was this a crime of passion? Or carefully planned? Neither Did he plan to frame Howie all along, or did that only enter in after the murder? When he committed the murder, he planned to frame Howie. But it wasn't something he had been planning for a while.

Further motive suggestions:
she had something he wanted?
She had something on him?
Self-defence?
Mental disorder?
Personal vendetta?
To protect someone else?
To otherwise help someone else? None of these

Did he commit the murder seconds after running the red light? Minutes? probably this Hours? Days?

Did Tom have a reason for framing Howie, other than just avoiding responsibility? Could he have framed someone else? It would be more believable to frame Howie than someone else, but other than that, anyone would have worked.

Was Howie's alibi immoral? Yope criminal? Yope Would he have had to admit something he was ashamed of if he had provided the alibi?Yes or yesish
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 12, 2013 - 8:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Tom's motive directly linked to the red light? Or did the red light incident make him realise he already had a motive? Or trigger an event that led to him having a motive? Did he have a motive for the murder already before running the red light?

Was the murder itself the important thing? Or was it just part of a bigger scheem of sorts?

Had Tom already committed a crime prior to the murder? Or several?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 2:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Tom's motive directly linked to the red light? yesish or yope, see below Or did the red light incident make him realise he already had a motive? No Or trigger an event that led to him having a motive? this is closest Did he have a motive for the murder already before running the red light? No

Was the murder itself the important thing? Or was it just part of a bigger scheem of sorts? Both

Had Tom already committed a crime prior to the murder? Or several? Two, including running the red light.
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 7:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, the missing crime of Tom's is...
Theft?
Fraud?
Forgery?
Shoplifting?
Robbery?
Assault?
Violence?
Another murder?
Rape?
Kidnapping?
Breaking and entering?
Trespassing?
Traffic offence?
Other minor offence?
Other major offence?

Was this crime related to the red light? Or did it become related to it in any way?

Did somebody else see Tom run the red light that is relevant for this puzzle?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Post Number: 115
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Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 9:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, the missing crime of Tom's is...
Theft?
Fraud?
Forgery?
Shoplifting?
Robbery?
Assault?
Violence?
Another murder?
Rape?
Kidnapping?
Breaking and entering?
Trespassing?
Traffic offence?
Other minor offence?I would say this
Other major offence?

Was this crime related to the red light? No Or did it become related to it in any way?Noish...

Did somebody else see Tom run the red light that is relevant for this puzzle?Yope, explore
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 10:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Tom, having run the red light, arrive somewhere earlier than expected? And learned something that gave him the motive for murder?
Was Amanda cheating on Tom? With Howie?
Did Tom know about Howie's alibi? Did Tom know that Howie will not provide his alibi to the police?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Tom, having run the red light, arrive somewhere earlier than expected? No And learned something that gave him the motive for murder? So no.
Was Amanda cheating on Tom? No With Howie? So no.
Did Tom know about Howie's alibi? No Did Tom know that Howie will not provide his alibi to the police?N/A
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 5:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Tom caught for running the red light? Did he hit other car? Other person?
Would Howie do harm to other person if he provided his alibi? Would he be arrested? Would he lose money?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 8:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Tom caught for running the red light? Yes or yesish Did he hit other car? no Other person? No
Would Howie do harm to other person if he provided his alibi? No Would he be arrested? Possibly, and judging by future episodes, he was. Would he lose money?Yes
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 11:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Tom stopped by the police? For running the red light? Was he fined? Arrested? Questioned? Alcohol-tested? Drug-tested? Was his car checked? Did it cause a relevant delay?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 6:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Tom stopped by the police? No, but.... No, but....</b> Was he fined? Eventually he probably was. Arrested? Not for running the red light, but eventually he was arrested for murder, obviously. Questioned? Alcohol-tested? Drug-tested? Was his car checked? Did it cause a relevant delay? No to rest
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 6:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, that formatted weirdly and cut out a question. Let's try again.

Was Tom stopped by the police? No, but.... For running the red light? No, but....

All other answers are as above.
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2013 - 12:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was his running a red light caught on camera?

Was Tom's motive for killing emotional? Or tactical?

The other minor offence: committed the same day? The day before? Last couple of weeks? This year? Or further back? Did it happen inside? Outside? In a public place? Car-related?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2013 - 8:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was his running a red light caught on camera? YES!

Was Tom's motive for killing emotional? Or tactical? Explain what you mean by this.

The other minor offence: committed the same day? Yes, and to clarify, it's minor compared to murder or assault, but it's something more than running a red light. The day before? Last couple of weeks? This year? Or further back? So no to these Did it happen inside? Assume yes Outside? Probably not, and it would constitute another offense if it was. But assume it wasn't. In a public place? Assume no. Car-related? Noish.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2013 - 8:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Tom try to bribe someone to delete the red-light recording of him? Did the other crime happen in the house of Tom?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2013 - 9:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Tom's motive for killing emotional? Or tactical? Explain what you mean by this.
I mean, was it in the category of motives in which you would find anger, rage, hating someone, feeling cheated etc. etc. - or the category where for instance you would think "hmmm... this person is an inconvinience to me, I should get rid of her" or "I think it is necessary to kill this person to help this other person"?

Did the running a red light lead to the other offense, which again led to the murder?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2013 - 10:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Tom try to bribe someone to delete the red-light recording of him? No Did the other crime happen in the house of Tom? Assume no.

Was Tom's motive for killing emotional? Or tactical? Explain what you mean by this.
I mean, was it in the category of motives in which you would find anger, rage, hating someone, feeling cheated etc. etc. - or the category where for instance you would think "hmmm... this person is an inconvinience to me, I should get rid of her" or "I think it is necessary to kill this person to help this other person"? Ok, probably a combination both then. Sorry if that doesn't help.

Did the running a red light lead to the other offense, which again led to the murder? No.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Monday, November 18, 2013 - 9:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it relevant why Tom ran the red light? Did Tom realize that his running the red light had been caught on the camera? If yes, did he realize it before murder?
Was the other offense sex-related?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it relevant why Tom ran the red light? No Did Tom realize that his running the red light had been caught on the camera? Yes If yes, did he realize it before murder? Yes
Was the other offense sex-related? Yes
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - 4:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the other offence occur sometime short(ish) before the running of the red light?
Was Amanda a witness to the first crime? Or involved as an accomplice? Or victim?
Did Amanda at any time become aware of the first crime?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2013 - 2:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the other offence occur sometime short(ish) before the running of the red light? Yes
Was Amanda a witness to the first crime? She was there when it happened, if that's what you mean. The next two questions should clarify. Or involved as an accomplice?You could say this, I suppose. Or victim? But some would argue she was this.
Did Amanda at any time become aware of the first crime? Yes
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2013 - 10:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So was Amanda forced into helping Tom with the first crime? By Tom via threats? Or blackmail?
Was Amanada visible in the photograph as they ran the red light? as well as Tom?
Would Tom have chosen to kill Amanda if he hadn't been photographed at the lights? Or was he planning to kill her anyway?
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2013 - 10:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were Tom and Howie physically alike? Would a traffic photo be unclear as to which of the two it was?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2013 - 2:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So was Amanda forced into helping Tom with the first crime? Noish or no, DOYD of "helping" By Tom via threats? Or blackmail? Definite no to both. Tom didn't force her to help in any sense of the word help.
Was Amanada visible in the photograph as they ran the red light? as well as Tom? Yes
Would Tom have chosen to kill Amanda if he hadn't been photographed at the lights? Or was he planning to kill her anyway? These are the same question if I'm reading it correctly. The answer is no.

Were Tom and Howie physically alike? Would a traffic photo be unclear as to which of the two it was? Assume no, if they are it's really irrelevant.
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2013 - 2:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hint: As Dorianna established, Howie and Amanda's professions are relevant. It's worth exploring at this point.
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2013 - 11:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was trying to establish motive, to see if Tom thought being photographed in the car with Amanda would cause him trouble or prove guilt of the previous crime, thus he decided she had to die. But I'll come back to it... :-)
Were Howie & Amanda's professions the same? Did they work in the same company / same office?
Was Amanda's profession...
Media related?
Entertainment?
Political?
Law Enforcement?
connected to traffic enforcement?
(Obviously there's a list but I'm loathe to use it)
Same questions for Howie
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2013 - 4:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was trying to establish motive, to see if Tom thought being photographed in the car with Amanda would cause him trouble or prove guilt of the previous crime, thus he decided she had to die. But I'll come back to it... :-) This is pretty much correct, actually.
Were Howie & Amanda's professions the same? Did they work in the same company / same office? No
Was Amanda's profession...
Media related?
Entertainment?
Political?
Law Enforcement?
connected to traffic enforcement?
(Obviously there's a list but I'm loathe to use it)
Same questions for Howie I'm not really sure how to describe Amanda's profession. I guess "entertainment" would be closest, but that's not a perfect description. Howie's profession is in religion.
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2013 - 9:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Amanda a stripper? Or some other "dodgy" profession? Is Howie a priest? Professor in theology? An actual Monk?
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Friday, November 22, 2013 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the first crime against a person other than Amanda? Against some person who Amanda was "entertaining"? Or against Amanda herself?
Or was the first crime a robbery of premises in which Amanda worked?
Was Howie present at the scene of the first crime? (which may explain his reticence to speak up)
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Friday, November 22, 2013 - 3:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Amanda a stripper? No, but OTRT Or some other "dodgy" profession? Yes Is Howie a priest? DOYD of "priest Professor in theology? No An actual Monk? No, though there are actual monks in another episode.
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Friday, November 22, 2013 - 3:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Amanda a prostitute? Or Escort?
Did Amanda leave completely willingly with Tom? As part of her profession? Or was she forced / bribed / kidnapped / threatened?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Friday, November 22, 2013 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Amanda a prostitute? This Or Escort? Possibly this too. I don't know enough about prostitution to figure that out.
Did Amanda leave completely willingly with Tom? See below As part of her profession? this Or was she forced / bribed If paying a prostitute for her work constitutes bribery, yes. No to rest. / kidnapped / threatened?
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Posted on Friday, November 22, 2013 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

(I'd say an Escort is a more legally accepted form of the service, (at least in the UK) where you pay for the "company" of the girl, which could lead to sex if she is willing, but isn't guaranteed and isn't explicitly paid for.)

(I do not speak from experience.)
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Posted on Saturday, November 23, 2013 - 4:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just want to butt in to say that I'm lurking and that this was a great idea for a puzzle. So many Monk episodes make for great ones...
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Posted on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 2:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So Amanda is a prostitute, and Howie is a vicar, right? (Or similar - priest, rabbi, etc.)
Was Tom's first crime simply that of procuring a prostitute? Or did he commit some other crime at the brothel, e.g. robbery?
Was Howie present in the location of the first crime?
Did Tom know Howie before the first crime? Did he know Howie's profession before he tried to fram him?
Did Tom try to frame Howie using some item of religious clothing? or religious artefact, e.g. cross / bible?
Did Tom Strangle Amanda?
Did he use something to murder Amanda which would lead investigators to believe a religious man was responsible? e.g. Strangle her with a religious item? Or hit her with a religious item?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Thursday, November 28, 2013 - 4:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So Amanda is a prostitute, and Howie is a vicar, right? (Or similar - priest, rabbi, etc.) yesish- it's worth exploring why this isn't a straight yes.
Was Tom's first crime simply that of procuring a prostitute? Yes Or did he commit some other crime at the brothel, e.g. robbery? No
Was Howie present in the location of the first crime? No
Did Tom know Howie before the first crime? Knew him personally? No. Knew who he was? Yes. Did he know Howie's profession before he tried to fram him? Yes
Did Tom try to frame Howie using some item of religious clothing? No or religious artefact, e.g. cross / bible? No but OTRT
Did Tom Strangle Amanda? No
Did he use something to murder Amanda which would lead investigators to believe a religious man was responsible? Not sure if it would qualify as a "thing" but you're certainly OTRT e.g. Strangle her with a religious item? Or hit her with a religious item? But not either of these.
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Sunday, December 01, 2013 - 8:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Clarification: Amanda is a prostitute. Howie is yeshishly a religious leader such as a priest.
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Monday, December 02, 2013 - 11:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Amanda stabbed? Shot? Sliced? Posioned? Drowned? Suffocated? Beat to death?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Was Amanda stabbed? This Shot? Sliced? Posioned? Drowned? Suffocated? Beat to death?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Monday, December 02, 2013 - 2:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Howie a seminary student? Is Howie's denomination relevant?
Was Howie a public person? Did he appear in the media?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Was Howie a seminary student? No Is Howie's denomination relevant? Yes for svv of "denomination.
Was Howie a public person? What do you mean by this? Did he appear in the media? Yes.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2013 - 12:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Howie a leader of a sect?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2013 - 5:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Howie a leader of a sect? As in a cult? Yes.
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2013 - 7:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Tom have any connection to the cult?

Was Amanda stabbed with a relic of thr cult? With a sword? A dagger? A knife? A pointy stick? A piece of fresh fruit?

Did Howie's alibi have to do with the cult? Was he with cult members when the murder was committed?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2013 - 10:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Tom have any connection to the cult? No, but....

Was Amanda stabbed with a relic of the cult? No, but you're OTRT With a sword? A dagger? A knife? Probably this, but it's irrelevant. A pointy stick? A piece of fresh fruit?

Did Howie's alibi have to do with the cult? Noish Was he with cult members when the murder was committed? No! And that's important!
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Monday, December 09, 2013 - 7:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So he was supposed to be with the cult at the time?

Had the blade been soaked in/smeared with/used to cut something that was connected to the cult?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Monday, December 09, 2013 - 8:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So he was supposed to be with the cult at the time? Assuming you mean Howie, yesish

Had the blade been soaked in/smeared with/used to cut something that was connected to the cult? Since the manner of death, other than the fact that it was a stabbing blamed on Howie, is irrelevant, I'm just going to end this line of questioning by saying Tom carved the cult symbol into Amanda's chest when he stabbed her. But all that really matters is that she was stabbed by Tom, who framed Howie.
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 6:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Howie going to become a member of the cult? Did he have a connection with them in the past, but had left?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Howie going to become a member of the cult? Did he have a connection with them in the past, but had left? Howie was the leader of the cult at all times relevant to this puzzle. We have already established that. But as a hint, you might want to ask this question about someone else.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2013 - 9:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, was Amanda going to become a member of the cult? Was Tom going to become a member of the cult?
Was either Tom or Amanda have a connection in the cult in past?
And, if Tom was a member of the cult, did his familiarity with the cult help him to frame Howie?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2013 - 4:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, was Amanda going to become a member of the cult? No, but see below. Was Tom going to become a member of the cult? No
Was either Tom or Amanda have a connection in the cult in past? Amanda used to be in the cult, but not Tom.
And, if Tom was a member of the cult, did his familiarity with the cult help him to frame Howie?Tom knew Amanda's history from their *ahem* relationship, and used that knowledge to frame Howie. Really, it's irrelevant how he framed Howie other than that it was a stabbing, so stop focusing on that.
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Monday, December 16, 2013 - 12:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, so for clarity, stop me if I go wrong...
Tom meets and uses the services of Amanda the prostitute.
During their time together he finds out that Amanda was at one time in a cult, of which Howie is leader.
Tom leaves with Amanda in a car.
(I don't know if we've determined whether Amanda leaves with Tom willingly, or as an ongoing part of her services, or is coerced or threatened into leaving with Tom...?)
Shortly afterward, Tom runs a red light& is caught on camera.
He realises that being snapped with Amanda would be bad for him, so decides to kill Amanda.
He kills her with a knife, & carves a cult symbol into her, thus implicating Howie.
If we've determined Howie's exact location & alibi why he didn't divulge it, I've missed that bit. So was Howie at the same location as Tom & Amanda when Tom first procured Amanda?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Monday, December 16, 2013 - 5:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, so for clarity, stop me if I go wrong...
Tom meets and uses the services of Amanda the prostitute.
During their time together he finds out that Amanda was at one time in a cult, of which Howie is leader.
Tom leaves with Amanda in a car.
(I don't know if we've determined whether Amanda leaves with Tom willingly, or as an ongoing part of her services, or is coerced or threatened into leaving with Tom...?) She left willingly, good so far.
Shortly afterward, Tom runs a red light& is caught on camera. Yes
He realises that being snapped with Amanda would be bad for him, so decides to kill Amanda. Yes
He kills her with a knife, & carves a cult symbol into her, thus implicating Howie.Yes
If we've determined Howie's exact location & alibi why he didn't divulge it, I've missed that bit. We haven't. So was Howie at the same location as Tom & Amanda when Tom first procured Amanda? No
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2013 - 10:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Howie somewhere (or doing something) that would be seen as incompatible with his status as leader of his religious order? Likely to bring criticism from his "flock"?
Or was he doing some good works which he didn't want to be publicly known?
Did Howie have some secret life? Or secret family? That were the cause of his lack of solid alibi?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 18, 2013 - 9:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Howie somewhere No, but ... (or doing something) Yes! that would be seen as incompatible with his status as leader of his religious order? Likely to bring criticism from his "flock"? Yes - location itself would not but what he was doing there certainly would.
Or was he doing some good works which he didn't want to be publicly known? No
Did Howie have some secret life? No Or secret family? No That were the cause of his lack of solid alibi? No
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Monday, December 23, 2013 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Howie doing something that was not allowed for the members of the cult? Was Howie doing something that he publicly denied doing?

Do we have the whole Tom&Amanda part? I don't still get why Tom killed her - they were caught on camera together, so there's still an evidence... Did Tom do anything relevant with the camera record?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 24, 2013 - 12:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Howie doing something that was not allowed for the members of the cult? No Was Howie doing something that he publicly denied doing? Yesish

Do we have the whole Tom&Amanda part? I don't still get why Tom killed her - they were caught on camera together, so there's still an evidence...Exactly. So how could he explain that away? Did Tom do anything relevant with the camera record? No
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 24, 2013 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Tom use the excuse that he was helping Amanda escape the cult? Which would explain (a) her appearance in the car, and (b) help to point the finger at Howie as the murderer later?

Was Howie, at the time of the murder, doing something illegal? Or Immoral? Was he relevantly married? Hence some illicit liaison?

The "yesish" about the denial - was it simply that when questioned, Howie wouldn't reveal what he was doing at the time?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 24, 2013 - 11:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Tom use the excuse that he was helping Amanda escape the cult? No Which would explain (a) her appearance in the car, This is somewhat OTRT and (b) help to point the finger at Howie as the murderer later? No

Was Howie, at the time of the murder, doing something illegal? Or Immoral? Was he relevantly married? Hence some illicit liaison? No to all

The "yesish" about the denial - was it simply that when questioned, Howie wouldn't reveal what he was doing at the time? There is more to it than that.
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2014 - 3:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the picture of Tom and Amanda in the car seen by investigators at some point between the crime and the unmasking of Tom?
Did Tom actually admit to having the prostitute in the car for the "usual" reasons? Or did he make some other excuse why she was there?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2014 - 5:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the picture of Tom and Amanda in the car seen by investigators at some point between the crime and the unmasking of Tom? No
Did Tom actually admit to having the prostitute in the car for the "usual" reasons? No Or did he make some other excuse why she was there? Yes!
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Friday, January 03, 2014 - 10:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Puzzled face...
So, Tom had Amanda in the car, and was photographed running a red light with Amanda in the passenger seat (or the back?) - correct?
But investigators hadn't found the picture during their initial investigations - correct?
But somehow Tom was a suspect? Or was he not a suspect?
And he gave some innocent reason to the police why Amanda was in the car with him?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Friday, January 03, 2014 - 9:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Puzzled face...
So, Tom had Amanda in the car, and was photographed running a red light with Amanda in the passenger seat (or the back?) - correct? Yes
But investigators hadn't found the picture during their initial investigations - correct? Correct, but ....
But somehow Tom was a suspect? Or was he not a suspect? At the time, no. But be careful of an FA.
And he gave some innocent reason to the police why Amanda was in the car with him? If by "innocent" you mean it would exonerate him of being caught with a prostitute, yes.
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Monday, January 06, 2014 - 11:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did investigators discover the picture during their general investigations (i.e. meaning that at that time Tom became a potential suspect)?
Did Tom volunteer the information to investigators that he was in a car with Amanda before investigators had time to find it?
Did Tom suggest, when questioned, that he didn't know Amanda was a prostitute?
Did Tom suggest that Amanda had in some way hijacked the car? Or asked for his help?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Monday, January 06, 2014 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did investigators discover the picture during their general investigations (i.e. meaning that at that time Tom became a potential suspect)? Not quite.
Did Tom volunteer the information to investigators that he was in a car with Amanda before investigators had time to find it? Yes
Did Tom suggest, when questioned, that he didn't know Amanda was a prostitute? Possibly, not really relevant whether he claimed to know that. He did claim he wasn't using her services.
Did Tom suggest that Amanda had in some way hijacked the car? No Or asked for his help? Yes
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 07, 2014 - 10:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Erm, earlier I asked if Tom said he was helping Amanda leave the cult, to which the answer was no. But now we know his story was that she asked for his help, correct?
Is it simply that he said she was straightforwardly needing a lift somewhere?
(e.g. hitchhiker, broken down car, someone he knew who needed a lift)?
Or is there some more subtle connection to the cult?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 3:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Erm, earlier I asked if Tom said he was helping Amanda leave the cult, to which the answer was no. Correct But now we know his story was that she asked for his help, correct? Yope - he didn't say she was asking for his help in leaving the cult.
Is it simply that he said she was straightforwardly needing a lift somewhere?
(e.g. hitchhiker, broken down car, someone he knew who needed a lift)? No, OTWT
Or is there some more subtle connection to the cult? I wouldn't exactly call it subtle, but it was connected to the cult.
Plebeian (Plebeian)
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Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2014 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was her request to Tom connected with the cult, in the sense of her preaching the cult's teachings?
Or an attempt to recruit Tom (according to his story)?
Was the prostitution a part of the cult's activities? e.g. selling or giving Sex for Jesus?
(I believe in America this is, or was, a real thing)
Was Howie's real alibi connected to the prostitution?
Was he running the brothel?
Or trying to convince Amanda or others to give up prostitution?
Or something separate from the immediate actions of Tom and Amanda?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Monday, January 27, 2014 - 2:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was her request to Tom connected with the cult, in the sense of her preaching the cult's teachings?
Or an attempt to recruit Tom (according to his story)? None of these. You guys are overlooking the obvious. Remember, Amanda used to be in the cult. She wasn't at the time of her death.
Was the prostitution a part of the cult's activities? e.g. selling or giving Sex for Jesus?
(I believe in America this is, or was, a real thing) Haha, no.
Was Howie's real alibi connected to the prostitution? No.
Was he running the brothel? So no.
Or trying to convince Amanda or others to give up prostitution? No
Or something separate from the immediate actions of Tom and Amanda? Yes
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 3:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HINT: Tom claimed Amanda asked him to drive her to the hospital after Howie stabbed her. That was the request.
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 1:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HINT 2: Howie had a sort of cult personality in addition to being the leader of a cult. </b>
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - 1:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, this has no action. I'm just spoiling it and posting a new one.

****SPOILER***

You've already established the answer to Part 1. Tom was caught on a red light camera with Amanda and claimed he was driving her to the hospital after she got stabbed by Howie. But he had to stab her first.

As for Part II, Monk saw in the photo that Amanda was wearing a seat belt, but there was no blood on the seat belt. So she hadn't been stabbed yet.

And for Part III, Howie, being a cult leader, claimed he was immortal because of the cult secrets. Needless to say, this was not true. In fact, when Amanda was murdered, Howie was with a doctor providing treatment for a back problem. But if Howie admitted to this, everyone would know he was lying about being immortal. Check out my new puzzle shortly.

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