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Abc (Abc)
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Post Number: 509
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Monday, January 13, 2014 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A murder victim lies on the ground. Police officer Chaples is looking at the only two possible culprits, and at the only witness, MorĪbon.

Caphlez asks MorĪbon: "What would you answer if I were to ask you who the murderer is?"

Why ask in such a roundabout way?
Wizardofnz (Wizardofnz)
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Post Number: 1355
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Posted on Monday, January 13, 2014 - 9:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does one of Morbon's heads only lie and the other only speak the truth?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Post Number: 5739
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Posted on Monday, January 13, 2014 - 10:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Torgy, good to see you back.

Were the two possible culprits conjoined?
Did they both hold a murder weapon in their hands?
Were they both admitting to murder? Were they both denying murder?
Abc (Abc)
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Post Number: 511
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 7:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does one of Morbon's heads only lie and the other only speak the truth? FA

Hi Torgy, good to see you back. Hello Lynne! Nice to see you too

Were the two possible culprits conjoined? No
Did they both hold a murder weapon in their hands? No, and irrelevant
Were they both admitting to murder? No Were they both denying murder? Yes (but irrelevant)
Mimino (Mimino)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 7:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Morbon H/A/M? Are the possible culprits?
Is Morbon among the possible culprits?
Does Morbon know who the murderer is?
Are the culprits present in the room at the moment when he asks Morbon?
Does he expect a straight answer from Morbon? A true answer?
Would Morbon's answer be "42"? (one never knows ..)
Lynne (Lynne)
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Post Number: 5775
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Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 11:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant how the victim was murdered?
Blunt trauma, shooting, decapitation, strangulation, slow bleed to death, poisoned?
Abc (Abc)
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Post Number: 513
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Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 9:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The correct name is "MorĪbon"

Is Morbon H/A/M? Are the possible culprits? All yes
Is Morbon among the possible culprits? No
Does Morbon know who the murderer is? Yes
Are the culprits present in the room at the moment when he asks Morbon? Yes
Does he expect a straight answer from Morbon? A true answer? I am not sure of the difference between a "straight" and a "true" answer, but I will guess that the correct answers to your questions are "Yes" and "No" respectively
Would Morbon's answer be "42"? (one never knows ..) Sorry, not in this Puzzle :-)

Relevant how the victim was murdered? No
Blunt trauma, shooting, decapitation, strangulation, slow bleed to death, poisoned? Let's say bored to death
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 1394
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Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 9:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would MorĪbon's answer to the question police officer asked him be different than to a straight "Who is the murderer" question?
Does MorĪbon reply to questions according to a rule? If yes, does the police officer know the rule?
Abc (Abc)
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Username: Abc

Post Number: 514
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 9:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would MorĪbon's answer to the question police officer asked him be different than to a straight "Who is the murderer" question? Maybe
Does MorĪbon reply to questions according to a rule? Depends on Your definition of "rule". A "yes" answer is probably the easiest to defend,
If yes, does the police officer know the rule? Yes
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Post Number: 402
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Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 9:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is MorĪbon's name relevant? Is its odd spelling relevant?

If the officer asked MorĪbon "Who is the murderer?" would the answer actually be the murderer's name? When the officer asked MorĪbon "What would you answer if I were to ask you who the murderer is?" was the answer actually the murderer's name?

Is there some legal difficulty preventing Chaples from simply asking who the murderer is? Something that might prevent a conviction later, for example?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 1396
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Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 9:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could MorĪbon face unpleasant consequences if he said "X is the murderer"?
Will the police officer arrest the person who MorĪbon appoints as a response to his question? Will he arrest the other possible culprit?
Abc (Abc)
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Username: Abc

Post Number: 516
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could MorĪbon face unpleasant consequences if he said "X is the murderer"? None relevant to the Puzzle
Will the police officer arrest the person who MorĪbon appoints as a response to his question? Yes
Will he arrest the other possible culprit? No
Abc (Abc)
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Username: Abc

Post Number: 517
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 9:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is MorĪbon's name relevant? Is its odd spelling relevant? No, it's just an eccentric habit of mine to assign bizarre names to the characters of my (and occasionally others') Puzzles

If the officer asked MorĪbon "Who is the murderer?" would the answer actually be the murderer's name? Yope
When the officer asked MorĪbon "What would you answer if I were to ask you who the murderer is?" was the answer actually the murderer's name? Yes

Is there some legal difficulty preventing Chaples from simply asking who the murderer is? No
Something that might prevent a conviction later, for example? Maybe
Wizardofnz (Wizardofnz)
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Post Number: 1399
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Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 9:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the murder suspects called 'Who' and 'Yes'?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 1400
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Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 10:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do both possible culprits have the same name?
You said earlier that Chaples expected MorĪbon to give untrue answer, but MorĪbon's answer to the question: "What would you answer if I were to ask you who the murderer is?", would be actually the murderer's name, all correct?
Abc (Abc)
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Post Number: 519
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 3:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the murder suspects called 'Who' and 'Yes'? No. Good idea though. Must save it for another Puzzle
Do both possible culprits have the same name? No
You said earlier that Chaples expected MorĪbon to give untrue answer, but MorĪbon's answer to the question: "What would you answer if I were to ask you who the murderer is?", would be actually the murderer's name, all correct? Yes
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 1404
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Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 3:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are both possible culprits murderers?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Post Number: 231
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Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does he always lie? So if he asked him who the murderer was, he would lie? But "he always lies" is not an admissible statement to prove it was the other guy, so he asks him who he would say is the murderer, and he would say it's the non-murderer, so he says he would say it's the murderer? And as far as a jury's concerned, he has just identified the murderer? Though in reality, this would not work because there is cross-examination and he would lie there, exposing him as a liar. Not to mention he would lie about his name when he was being sworn in. He would also lie about telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, but since he wasn't going to do that, he would say he would.
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Post Number: 412
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Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 4:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Along the lines of Who and Yes, do either of the suspects have names that would require the roundabout question?

If a civilian were to ask either question to MorĪbon, would they get the same answers Chaples would? If Chaples pointed at each suspect in turn and said "Is he the murderer?" would MorĪbon answer "Yes" when he pointed to the murderer? Would he say "No" when he pointed to the non-murderer?

Does MorĪbon have any relevant preexisting relationships with either suspect? If Chaples waited long enough, would MorĪbon likely ID the murderer without provocation?
Abc (Abc)
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Post Number: 520
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Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 8:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are both possible culprits murderers? No

Does he always lie? No
So if he asked him who the murderer was, he would lie? Yope
But "he always lies" is not an admissible statement to prove it was the other guy, so he asks him who he would say is the murderer, and he would say it's the non-murderer, so he says he would say it's the murderer? Well, yes
And as far as a jury's concerned, he has just identified the murderer? There is no jury at this stage
Though in reality, this would not work because there is cross-examination and he would lie there, exposing him as a liar. Not to mention he would lie about his name when he was being sworn in. He would also lie about telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, but since he wasn't going to do that, he would say he would. Um... this isn't a question, so I cannot answer

Along the lines of Who and Yes, do either of the suspects have names that would require the roundabout question? No

If a civilian were to ask either question to MorĪbon, would they get the same answers Chaples would? Not necessarily
If Chaples pointed at each suspect in turn and said "Is he the murderer?" would MorĪbon answer "Yes" when he pointed to the murderer? Yope
Would he say "No" when he pointed to the non-murderer? Yope

Does MorĪbon have any relevant preexisting relationships with either suspect? No
If Chaples waited long enough, would MorĪbon likely ID the murderer without provocation? Not likely
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 1408
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Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 8:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Chaples ask MorĪbon any relevant earlier question? Was MorĪbon obliged to lie to a police officer?
If the suspects hadn't been present, would Chaples still have asked the roundabout question?
Abc (Abc)
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Post Number: 522
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Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 8:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Chaples ask MorĪbon any relevant earlier question? No
Was MorĪbon obliged to lie to a police officer? Probably not
If the suspects hadn't been present, would Chaples still have asked the roundabout question? Yes (provided he still knew that the two were the only suspects)
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 1413
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Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 8:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If there had been more suspects, would Chaples still have asked the question in roundabout way? Is it relevant why Chaples expected untrue answer?
Abc (Abc)
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Post Number: 524
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 8:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If there had been more suspects, would Chaples still have asked the question in roundabout way? "FA" is the best answer here, I think
Is it relevant why Chaples expected untrue answer? Yes
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 1417
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Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 9:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is MorĪbon one of the two suspects?
If not, are more people relevant than Victim, Chaples, MorĪbon, Suspect 1 and Suspect 2?
Abc (Abc)
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Post Number: 528
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 6:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is MorĪbon one of the two suspects? No
If not, are more people relevant than Victim, Chaples, MorĪbon, Suspect 1 and Suspect 2? No, these are the only relevant persons
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 1427
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Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a real life situation? Or do they try to solve a theoretical problem?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 2:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I see now that your puzzle statement has Caphlez asking the question, not Chaples. Is this just a typo? Is Cahplez one of the suspects? Is he the murderer?

Regarding Redwine's earlier question: "If there had been more suspects, would Chaples still have asked the question in roundabout way?"

Was the FA regarding the number of suspects? Was it that there weren't more suspects? Was the FA that Chaples was asking the question? Was the FA that Chaples asked the question in a roundabout way?
Abc (Abc)
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Post Number: 532
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Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 3:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a real life situation? Or do they try to solve a theoretical problem? I doubt that it has ever happened, but there is nothing to stop it from happening somewhere somewhen. The strict answer to "theoretical problem" question is "no", but the question does have some merit.

I see now that your puzzle statement has Caphlez asking the question, not Chaples. Is this just a typo? Is Cahplez one of the suspects? Is he the murderer? Sorry, sloppiness on my side. For "Chaples" read "Chaplez" in all of the above postings.

Regarding Redwine's earlier question: "If there had been more suspects, would Chaples still have asked the question in roundabout way?"

Was the FA regarding the number of suspects? Was it that there weren't more suspects? Was the FA that Chaples was asking the question? This is the closest Was the FA that Chaples asked the question in a roundabout way?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 1431
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Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 3:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Chaplez's "What would you answer if I were to ask you who the murderer is?" meant as a question to MorĪbon? If yes, was it meant as a question about who murdered the victim lying on the ground?

Can MorĪbon speak? Is he mentally stable? Is his profession relevant?
Did MorĪbon see the murder? Was MorĪbon, for some reason, mistaken about true identity of the murderer?
Was MorĪbon's opinion about the guilt and responsibility for murder different than Chaplez's?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Post Number: 416
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Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 3:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If your typical person was in MorĪbon's situation, would they answer questions the same way? Or is there something about MorĪbon that makes him answer the way he does?

Does Chaples have any relevant prior knowledge about MorĪbon? Is there something about his appearance that makes Chaples ask the question in a roundabout way?

Does Chaples know that the two suspects are the only ones who could have committed the murder? Does he know MorĪbon is the only witness? Does he suspect MorĪbon at all?
Abc (Abc)
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Post Number: 533
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Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 8:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Chaplez's "What would you answer if I were to ask you who the murderer is?" meant as a question to MorĪbon? If yes, was it meant as a question about who murdered the victim lying on the ground? Both yes

Can MorĪbon speak? Yes Is he mentally stable? I'd say yes. Others may disagree. Is his profession relevant? Yes
Did MorĪbon see the murder? Let's say yes Was MorĪbon, for some reason, mistaken about true identity of the murderer? No
Was MorĪbon's opinion about the guilt and responsibility for murder different than Chaplez's? No

If your typical person was in MorĪbon's situation, would they answer questions the same way? Not necessarily Or is there something about MorĪbon that makes him answer the way he does? Yes(ish)

Does Chaples have any relevant prior knowledge about MorĪbon? Yes Is there something about his appearance that makes Chaples ask the question in a roundabout way? Yes

Does Chaples know that the two suspects are the only ones who could have committed the murder? Yes
Does he know MorĪbon is the only witness? Yes Does he suspect MorĪbon at all? No
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 1432
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Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 8:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is MorĪbon a policeman? A lawyer? A logician? A mathematician?
Abc (Abc)
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Post Number: 537
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Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 8:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is MorĪbon a policeman? A lawyer? A logician? This. I was thinking of him initially as a philosopher, but logician is better. A mathematician?
Alexanderhamilton (Alexanderhamilton)
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Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does MorĪbon subscribe to a relevant school of thought? Was he doing an experiment?

Was the relevant prior knowledge Chaples has of MorĪbon the fact that he is logician? Is there something about his appearance that makes it obvious he is a logician?

If Chaples asked MorĪbon who the murderer was straightforwardly, would he launch into a lecture about how nothing is really knowable?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 1434
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Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 9:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Chaples just choose a sure way to get the 100% true answer from MorĪbon, given that two truths give the truth and two lies also give the truth?
Abc (Abc)
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Post Number: 539
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Posted on Friday, January 17, 2014 - 6:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does MorĪbon subscribe to a relevant school of thought? Was he doing an experiment? neither. Well, maybe a little bit of the latter

Was the relevant prior knowledge Chaples has of MorĪbon the fact that he is logician? Noish Is there something about his appearance that makes it obvious he is a logician? Yesish

If Chaples asked MorĪbon who the murderer was straightforwardly, would he launch into a lecture about how nothing is really knowable? No

Did Chaples just choose a sure way to get the 100% true answer from MorĪbon, given that two truths give the truth and two lies also give the truth? Exactly this

I think we are close enough, so:

******************** SPOILER *******************

MorĪbon is wearing a sign that says "You may ask me anything, but sometimes I lie, sometimes I tell the truth. I decide whether to lie or tell the truth the moment before you utter the first word of your question".

So this is actually a brainteaser in reverse; usually the situation (including the sign) would be described, and the challenge would be what question to ask to be sure to have MorĪbon tell the truth. Also, it is most often presented with two persons, one who lies and one who tells the truth; for some reason many people find the one-person variant more difficult to grasp.

Thanks for playing, everyone!

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