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Paul1440 (Paul1440)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2014 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jim and Mary are a happily married couple. They are monogamous and strictly heterosexual. However, they claim to have an alternative lifestyle. Why?
Wizardofnz (Wizardofnz)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2014 - 9:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the 'alternativeness' of their lifestyle relate to something other than their sexuality, marital status and sexual practices?

If not, does the answer lie in timing or location (i.e. they have an alternative lifestyle as defined by the surrounding culture)?

Is it the year 5000 and everyone's married to a man, a woman, and a box turtle?

I assume Jim = HAM and Mary = HAF.
Konnie (Konnie)
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Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2014 - 9:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is their lifestyle considered alternative to most people worldwide? Only in their country? Only to them?
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 1:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do they live in Provincetown, where almost everyone is gay and they make fun of heterosexuals by calling them "breeders"?
Paul1440 (Paul1440)
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Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 6:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wizardofnz (Wizardofnz)

Does the 'alternativeness' of their lifestyle relate to something other than their sexuality, marital status and sexual practices? Yes

If not, does the answer lie in timing or location (i.e. they have an alternative lifestyle as defined by the surrounding culture)? No

Is it the year 5000 and everyone's married to a man, a woman, and a box turtle? No. This takes place in the present.

I assume Jim = HAM and Mary = HAF. Correct
Paul1440 (Paul1440)
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Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 6:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Konnie (Konnie)

Is their lifestyle considered alternative to most people worldwide? Only in their country? Only to them? It would be considered alternative to most people worldwide.
Paul1440 (Paul1440)
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Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 6:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)

Do they live in Provincetown, where almost everyone is gay and they make fun of heterosexuals by calling them "breeders"? No
Konnie (Konnie)
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Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 9:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the alternativeness stem from their diet? Transportation choice? Career(s)? Clothing (or something appearance-wise)?
Paul1440 (Paul1440)
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Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 10:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Konnie (Konnie)

Does the alternativeness stem from their diet? Transportation choice? Career(s)? Clothing (or something appearance-wise)? No to all
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 9:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do they have children? Relevant?
Paul1440 (Paul1440)
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Posted on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 2:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine (Redwine)

Do they have children? Yes Relevant? Yes, very relevant
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do they have many children? More than 5? Only girls? Only boys?
Do they bring up their children in an extraordinary way?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 3:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the children their own? Or adopted?
Paul1440 (Paul1440)
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Posted on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 4:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine (Redwine)

Do they have many children? More than 5? Unlikely, but definitely at least 2. For the purpose of this puzzle, assume they have exactly 2 children.

Only girls? Irrelevant
Only boys? Irrelevant

Do they bring up their children in an extraordinary way? In my opinion, I'd say yes
Paul1440 (Paul1440)
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Posted on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 4:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Lynne (Lynne)

For simplicity sake, even though the gender doesn't matter, let's assume they have a son named Ethan and a daughter named Olivia.

Are the children their own? Or adopted?
Jim is the biological father of both children.
Mary is the biological mother of Ethan, but not Olivia. They are not "adopted" in the usual sense.
Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Mary a surrogate mother for Olivia? Relevant who Olivia's biological mother is?
Paul1440 (Paul1440)
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Posted on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 6:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doriana (Doriana)

Was Mary a surrogate mother for Olivia? No, but you're OTRT Relevant who Olivia's biological mother is? Yes. In fact let's give her a name. From now on, assume that Olivia's biological mother's name is Kelly
Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 6:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Kelly related to Mary? to Jim? Is she Jim's ex-wife/girlfriend?
Did Kelly carry the baby? Did Mary?
Egg or sperm donation relevant?
Paul1440 (Paul1440)
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Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2014 - 8:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doriana (Doriana)

Is Kelly related to Mary? to Jim? Is she Jim's ex-wife/girlfriend? No to all

The rest of the questions need to be answered separately for each child.

For Ethan:

Did Kelly carry the baby? No Did Mary? No!!!
Egg or sperm donation relevant?Not exactly, but you're close

For Olivia:

Did Kelly carry the baby? Yes Did Mary? No
Egg or sperm donation relevant?Sperm donation

At this point, it is obvious that another woman carried Ethan. For now on, we'll refer to this other woman as Rachel

(By the way, I am choosing the names arbitrarily)
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 10:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So was Rachel known to any of the other parties? a relative? Does it matter whether Olivia was born before Ethan? or the other way around?

Were both methods of conception and delivery absolutely necessary medically?
Paul1440 (Paul1440)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Peter365 (Peter365)

So was Rachel known to any of the other parties? Yes. In fact, she is known to all of the other parties. You probably want to explore this further a relative? No Does it matter whether Olivia was born before Ethan? or the other way around? It doesn't matter who was born first, but they were born close to the same time.

Were both methods of conception and delivery absolutely necessary medically? If Mary wanted to have a biological child, the method of conception and delivery of Ethan was necessary. As far as Olivia is concerned, there was a reason that Jim was chosen to be the dad. Since he wasn't going to have sex with someone other than his wife, sperm donation was the best choice
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 3:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Before I explore the complexities of their relationships can I just ask if there's some sort of designer baby activity going on here?

Has Jim a special talent? is he particularly handsome? strong?

Does anyone have a medical problem and they are 'creating' a potential donor?

Hard to phrase some of these questions, It's an interesting puzzle.
Paul1440 (Paul1440)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 5:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Peter365 (Peter365)

Before I explore the complexities of their relationships can I just ask if there's some sort of designer baby activity going on here? No

Has Jim a special talent? is he particularly handsome? strong? Nothing that's relevant here

Does anyone have a medical problem and they are 'creating' a potential donor? As you can infer from above, Mary is unable to carry a pregnancy to full term. That is the ONLY relevant medical problem for any of them. I'm not sure what you mean by "creating a potential donor"
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Mary and Jim pay Kelly to carry and deliver Jim's baby? Did Mary and Jim pay Rachel to carry and deliver their baby?
Is it relevant why Mary and Jim bring up Jim and Kelly's baby? Is Kelly still alive?
Paul1440 (Paul1440)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 8:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine (Redwine)

Did Mary and Jim pay Kelly to carry and deliver Jim's baby? No Did Mary and Jim pay Rachel to carry and deliver their baby? No

Is it relevant why Mary and Jim bring up Jim and Kelly's baby? Yes -- Hint: There is a semi-false assumption there Is Kelly still alive? Yes

Another Hint: As I've mentioned before, try to explore the relationships between the adults.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, February 07, 2014 - 10:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are Mary and Kelly sisters? Twin sisters?
Does Kelly participate in bringing up Olivia?
Paul1440 (Paul1440)
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Posted on Friday, February 07, 2014 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Redwine (Redwine)

Are Mary and Kelly sisters? Twin sisters? No. (I already mentioned that they're not related)
Does Kelly participate in bringing up Olivia? Yes (Very Important!)
Paul1440 (Paul1440)
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Posted on Friday, February 07, 2014 - 2:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Note: We've already established that neither Kelly nor Rachel are related to any of the other adults in this scenario. Just for clarity, When I said "try to explore the relationships between the adults", I'm not necessarily talking about family relationships.
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 12, 2014 - 11:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There's a lot of key people in this puzzle so can I try to summarise my understanding of who's who. Please correct any mistakes.

Jim - Married to Mary and Biological father to their son Ethan and daughter Olivia.

Mary - Married to Jim, biological mother to Ethan (but did not carry him) but not Olivia. Mary is unable to carry a baby to term.

Kelly - Carried Ethan but is not biological mother to him, is biological mother to Olivia and carried her normally. Kelly participates in Olivia's upbringing and this is very relevant. Was never romantically involved with Jim or Mary or Rachel?

Rachel - Not biological mother to either child but did carry Ethan. Rachel is known to but not related to all other parties. Was never romantically involved with Jim Mary or Kelly.

-Sperm donation is relevant.
-Jim was chosen to be Olivia's dad for a specific reason but not for any medical reason or anything to do with his physical appearance or talents.

Is all of the above correct?
Do all the people involved cohabit? If not do Ethan and Olivia live with Jim and Mary?

Did Rachel act a surrogate for Mary so that she and Jim can have a child. Mary's egg is transplanted into Rachel? Was there a specific reason that Rachel was chosen to carry Ethan?

Are the any religous beliefs involved here? Is it likely that some people would feel that there's something immoral going on? Are Jim and Mary open about their unusual family.

Are any of the parties work colleagues? Or are they members of a club or organisation? Do they see each other socially?

I'm really hoping there's no other relevant party.
Paul1440 (Paul1440)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 12, 2014 - 5:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Peter365 (Peter365)

There's a lot of key people in this puzzle so can I try to summarise my understanding of who's who. Please correct any mistakes.

Jim - Married to Mary and Biological father to their son Ethan and daughter Olivia. Correct

Mary - Married to Jim, biological mother to Ethan (but did not carry him) but not Olivia. Mary is unable to carry a baby to term. Correct

Kelly - Carried Ethan but is not biological mother to him, Rachel, not Kelly, carried Ethan is biological mother to Olivia and carried her normally. Yes Kelly participates in Olivia's upbringing and this is very relevant. Yes Was never romantically involved with Jim or Mary or Rachel? Incorrect. I only said that Kelly was never romantically involved with Jim. In fact, Kelly is romantically involved with Rachel

Rachel - Not biological mother to either child but did carry Ethan. Correct Rachel is known to but not related to all other parties. Correct Was never romantically involved with Jim Mary or Kelly. Incorrect. See above

-Sperm donation is relevant. Correct
-Jim was chosen to be Olivia's dad for a specific reason but not for any medical reason or anything to do with his physical appearance or talents. Correct

Is all of the above correct? No. See individual comments above
Do all the people involved cohabit? Yes!!! Well done!! If not do Ethan and Olivia live with Jim and Mary?

Did Rachel act a surrogate for Mary so that she and Jim can have a child. Yes Mary's egg is transplanted into Rachel? Yes Was there a specific reason that Rachel was chosen to carry Ethan? It's more accurate to say that Rachel volunteered to do this

Are the any religous beliefs involved here? No Is it likely that some people would feel that there's something immoral going on? Yes Are Jim and Mary open about their unusual family. Probably but Irrelevant

Are any of the parties work colleagues? It's possible that some of them met this way, but irrelevant Or are they members of a club or organisation? Ditto Do they see each other socially? Yes

I'm really hoping there's no other relevant party.

Since my original question is answered, I think we're close enough to post a $p0iler... See my next post
Paul1440 (Paul1440)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 12, 2014 - 5:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

*********SPOILER************
Mary and Rachel are best friends and have known each other for a long time. Mary is straight and Rachel is gay.

Now Mary is married to Jim and Rachel is in a committed relationship with Kelly. For medical reasons, Mary is unable to carry a baby to term. Since she always wanted a child, Rachel volunteered to be a surrogate for her friend. (And Kelly was OK with that) Jim and Mary were so grateful and had mentioned that they wish there was something they could do in return. Kelly said there is something they could do. She and Rachel also always wanted a baby and asked if Jim could be the sperm donor. He and Mary agreed.

At some point later, the four of them (who all get along well) decided that it would be best for the children if they grew up together, so they decided to all live in one household. Hence the alternative lifestyle.
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Thursday, February 13, 2014 - 10:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh my. In my attempts to clarify what we've learned I somehow stumble upon the key point. They do say even a blind pig finds the odd truffle.

A very weird and wonderful domestic arrangement. Mothers Day must be quite confusing.
Paul1440 (Paul1440)
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Posted on Friday, February 14, 2014 - 3:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Peter365 (Peter365)

Oh my. In my attempts to clarify what we've learned I somehow stumble upon the key point. They do say even a blind pig finds the odd truffle.

A very weird and wonderful domestic arrangement. Mothers Day must be quite confusing. LOL

In case you were wondering, I made up this scenario. It's not based on anyone I know. I do think it would make a good sitcom, though.
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Friday, February 14, 2014 - 10:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It sure would . 'Modern Family' is probably the closest in terms of strange family units.
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Posted on Saturday, February 15, 2014 - 2:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I dunno. Ever google the old song, "I'm My Own Grandpa"? Though it doesn't involve surrogates. There has been a similar situation in my own family, also not involving surrogates. Somebody wound up as his own uncle.

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