[Biograd] Contradictions

An archive of solved lateral thinking puzzles.

Moderators: peter365, Balin, kalira, JenBurdoo, Tiger

[Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:59 pm

(Inspired by another LTPF puzzle, though I won't reveal which one yet!)
Recently, someone gave a group of people some instructions/advice. This struck me as amusing, because similar speakers almost always give similar groups of people the exact opposite instructions in the analogous situation. Who was speaking, what were the instructions, and why?
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby GalFisk » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:04 pm

Someone: H? A? M? Group: H? A? M? Did the instructor expect the group to follow the instructions? Did the instructor intend benefit for the group? For him/herself? For someone else? Would someone giving opposite instructions expect the group to follow their advice? Would that instructor intend benefit for the group? For him/herself? For someone else?
Last edited by GalFisk on Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
GalFisk
 
Posts: 7168
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 8:03 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby CoffeeBean » Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:49 pm

Did the group of people all know each other?
Were the instructions regarding an event in progress? A future event or situation? Did they give a suggested course of action?
Were the instructions urgent?
CoffeeBean
 
Posts: 978
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:34 pm

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:13 pm

Someone: H? A? M?Yes to all, but the gender is irrelevant (and varies among the "similar speakers" mentioned) Group:Note, I'm answering for the group in this instance, when the "unusual" advice was given H?Yes A?Yes M?Mixed Did the instructor expect the group to follow the instructions?Yes. And note, in this instance it was more advice or notification than instruction. Did the instructor intend benefit for the group?Yes For him/herself? For someone else? Would someone giving opposite instructions expect the group to follow their advice?Yes Would that instructor intend benefit for the group?Some this For him/herself?...and some this For someone else?

Did the group of people all know each other?Not as in knowing names, although they weren't random strangers either. They were all there for a certain purpose and some did know each other. In time, more might get to know each other as well. They were certainly all aware of each other's presence.
Were the instructions regarding an event in progress?This A future event or situation?...with elements of this. Did they give a suggested course of action?Yes
Were the instructions urgent?No
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby Twilightseeker » Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:00 am

Is the group of people the members of the LTPF? Is the "someone" the person who posts a puzzle?
Twilightseeker
 
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 8:42 am
Location: Hawaii, USA

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:18 pm

Is the group of people the members of the LTPF? Is the "someone" the person who posts a puzzle?No to both. The LTPF is of no relevance here.
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby CoffeeBean » Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:22 pm

Were the instructions in the "if/then" format?
Or something that people were told to do when a known future circumstance occurred?
Had the people come together for a common purpose? In a common place? Or were they in various places but able to all communicate with each other?
CoffeeBean
 
Posts: 978
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:34 pm

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:44 pm

Were the instructions in the "if/then" format?No. And again, keep in mind that the instructions were much more like advice/information in this instance, rather than commands.
Or something that people were told to do when a known future circumstance occurred?No
Had the people come together for a common purpose?Yes, I already said that. In a common place?Yes Or were they in various places but able to all communicate with each other?No
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:56 am

To push this along a little bit:

It is very likely that all of you have been, many times, in a group that was given the more typical set of instructions. In this case, they actually are instructions.
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby Twilightseeker » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:39 pm

Is the context that of a classroom or school of any kind?
Twilightseeker
 
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 8:42 am
Location: Hawaii, USA

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:48 pm

Is the context that of a classroom or school of any kind?Yes, in fact both are.
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby Twilightseeker » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:43 pm

So, was the instructor/teacher the one speaking? were the instructions related to: homework? classwork? students? the physical room in which they were? the schedule? the class in general? the material topic? exams? quizzes? classroom supplies (e.g. books, pens)?
Twilightseeker
 
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 8:42 am
Location: Hawaii, USA

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:29 pm

So, was the instructor/teacher the one speaking?Yes were the instructions related to: homework?No classwork?Noish, there's a better answer below. students?No the physical room in which they were?No the schedule?Yope the class in general?Yes the material topic?No exams?No quizzes?No classroom supplies (e.g. books, pens)?No

Note that in this post, the answer to all questions is exactly the same for the "usual" situation, and the unusual one that is the subject of this puzzle. If any questions arise where the answers are different, I'll be sure to specify.
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby GalFisk » Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:17 am

Is a class trip or outing relevant? Working together relevant? Not looking at the work of others? Staying together? Was a class advised to spread out in order to cover more things/ground or to get differing experiences, rather than to stick together in order to be easier managed and/or not get lost? Were students encouraged to look at and/or copy the work of their mates?
GalFisk
 
Posts: 7168
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 8:03 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:48 pm

Is a class trip or outing relevant?No Working together relevant?Yope Not looking at the work of others?No Staying together?Yope, for the same reason Was a class advised to spread out in order to cover more things/ground or to get differing experiences, rather than to stick together in order to be easier managed and/or not get lost?No Were students encouraged to look at and/or copy the work of their mates?No
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby GalFisk » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:47 pm

Splitting into groups or pairs relevant?
GalFisk
 
Posts: 7168
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 8:03 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:01 am

Splitting into groups or pairs relevant?Not explicitly. Though, one part of the advice in the atypical case would possibly be made easier by doing this, although the groups/pairs would not be formed by the teacher.
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby Twilightseeker » Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:33 am

Does it involve working alone/not cheating off of each other versus helping each other with answers to something (like a test)?
Twilightseeker
 
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 8:42 am
Location: Hawaii, USA

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby GalFisk » Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:45 am

Including everyone/not being left out or singled out relevant?
GalFisk
 
Posts: 7168
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 8:03 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:08 pm

Does it involve working alone/not cheating off of each other versus helping each other with answers to something (like a test)?No Including everyone/not being left out or singled out relevant?No with a VERY small "ish". Maybe I misled you. The idea of people in the class interacting with one another is relevant to one piece of the advice, but it has nothing to do with cheating or any other sort of dishonesty.
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby psymann » Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:36 pm

In the typical scenarios, there is a teacher, who gives advice to a class of adults?
He intends for them to gain benefit from his advice, but also for himself to gain from them following his advice?
Is the benefit he expects them to gain that they might avoid behaving inappropriately?


In the atypical scenario, there is a teacher, who gives advice to a class of adults?
He intends for them to gain some definite benefit from his advice, but not particularly for himself to gain any benefit?
Is the atypical advice for them to gain enjoyment from an activity which would more often, in a similar situation, be discouraged/prohibited?


In the typical scenarios, the class could be Male, Female or Mixed?

In the atypical scenario, it is relevant that the class was Mixed?
User avatar
psymann
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:29 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:39 pm

In the typical scenarios, there is a teacherYes, who gives advice to a class of adults?...but No. It's possible for this situation to occur with adults, though, just less common.
He intends for them to gain benefit from his advice, but also for himself to gain from them following his advice?Yes
Is the benefit he expects them to gain that they might avoid behaving inappropriately?This is the benefit that HE expects to gain.


In the atypical scenario, there is a teacher, who gives advice to a class of adults?Yes.
He intends for them to gain some definite benefit from his advice, but not particularly for himself to gain any benefit?Yes
Is the atypical advice for them to gain enjoyment from an activity which would more often, in a similar situation, be discouraged/prohibited?This is along the lines of the second part of the advice (it's in two parts). Although "enjoyment" is only part of the reason to encourage it. It's true, though, that he is advising something that would normally be prohibited (and when prohibited, the activity would otherwise be done for enjoyment).


In the typical scenarios, the class could be Male, Female or Mixed?Yes

In the atypical scenario, it is relevant that the class was Mixed?No

Hint (to save a lot of wild guesses, since you're OTRT now):
The typical instruction could be expressed as "It is required that you X, but definitely don't do it for the purpose of Y". The advice in the atypical situation was "You do not need to do X, but it may still help to do so, for the purpose of Y". What remains is to figure out X and Y.
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby psymann » Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:33 am

Is the normally-prohibited behaviour related to noise? safety? sex/relationships?
User avatar
psymann
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:29 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:20 pm

Is the normally-prohibited behaviour related to noise?This behavior ("Y") is related in part to noise. safety?No, although engaging in it may compromise safety if it's a hands-on class involving potentially hazardous activities.sex/relationships?No
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby psymann » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:54 pm

Is the typical instruction: "It is required that you X, but definitely don't do it to be noisy?"
Is the typical instruction: "It is required that you X, but definitely don't do it to make a particular sound?"
Is the typical instruction: "It is required that you X, but definitely don't do it to be quiet?"
User avatar
psymann
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:29 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:03 pm

Is the typical instruction: "It is required that you X, but definitely don't do it to be noisy?"
Is the typical instruction: "It is required that you X, but definitely don't do it to make a particular sound?"
Is the typical instruction: "It is required that you X, but definitely don't do it to be quiet?"No to all. The purpose of Y is not to be noisy (or to be quiet), and neither is the purpose of X. However, doing Y does tend to make noise (in fact, in one way that action Y is commonly expressed, it makes noise by definition), and this is a good part of the reason why it is typically forbidden during class.
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby psymann » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:35 pm

In the typical scenario, is the instruction (X) to:
- get something out?
- put something away?
- perform an action?
- avoid performing an action?
- turn something on?
- turn something off?
- write something?
- say something?
- look at something?
User avatar
psymann
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:29 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:49 pm

In the typical scenario, is the instruction (X) to:
- get something out?
- put something away?
- perform an action?This is the only one that fits.
- avoid performing an action?
- turn something on?
- turn something off?
- write something?
- say something?
- look at something?
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby Grip » Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:11 am

Is X and/or Y "discussion?"
Grip
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:47 am
Location: Central Florida, USA

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:58 am

Is X and/or Y "discussion?"For X, no. For Y, yesish. In fact, in the atypical situation, Y was meant to be interpreted essentially as this. It matters as much with whom Y is done as how it is precisely defined.
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby Grip » Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:30 am

Is dancing relevant?

is X and/or Y related to study? prayer?

Is it relevant what the subject of the class(es) was? or could it be for any subject?
Grip
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:47 am
Location: Central Florida, USA

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:20 pm

Is dancing relevant?No haha.

is X and/or Y related to study?Not in the sense you're probably thinking (as in sitting down outside of class and learning the material. prayer?Certainly no.

Is it relevant what the subject of the class(es) was?No, not really. It was a statistics class in this case, but it certainly didn't have to be. or could it be for any subject?

Hint for Y--think of things that kids commonly do in class that they have to be repeatedly told not to do. The fact that you've just established it can mean the same as "discussion" should make it quite straightforward to figure it out at this point.
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby GalFisk » Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:13 pm

Being noisy? Not sitting still? Not listening? Distracting others? Sending notes?
GalFisk
 
Posts: 7168
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 8:03 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby Grip » Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:28 pm

Y = "Stop talking without raising your hands?"
Grip
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:47 am
Location: Central Florida, USA

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:05 pm

Y = "Stop talking without raising your hands?"Raising hands is not relevant, but talking is. In particular, talking among each other (as opposed to asking something to the professor/teacher). Since you seem to be getting the idea, I'll just say that Y is "socializing/chatting among each other".

So, the typical instruction is "You must do X, but definitely not in order to socialize/talk among each other", while the unusual one in this puzzle's situation is "You don't need to do X, but it may still be useful to do it, so that you can socialize/talk among each other". What remains is to figure out X (don't overthink it).
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby Grip » Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:12 pm

(don't overthink it) You don't have to worry about that with me at least!

X = study? work together? gather in groups?
Grip
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:47 am
Location: Central Florida, USA

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:48 pm

X = study? work together? gather in groups?No to all. Although, in the atypical case (where socializing/chatting in class was seen as a positive thing), the implied meaning was "working together" or "learning from each other" as opposed to the more usual meaning of "goofing off".
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby CoffeeBean » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:57 pm

X = do something that appears to be a social activity? go somewhere as a group? the group of people doing the same thing at the same time, or all doing in within a certain time frame?
CoffeeBean
 
Posts: 978
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:34 pm

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:56 am

X = do something that appears to be a social activity?DOYD go somewhere as a group?Yesish the group of people doing the same thing at the same time, or all doing in within a certain time frame?Yes, it does involve doing something at the same time and place as each other--at least as the others who are also doing X.
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby Grip » Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:23 pm

Are fire drills relevant?
Grip
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:47 am
Location: Central Florida, USA

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby psymann » Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:01 pm

So it is:

"You must do X, but definitely not in order to socialize/talk among each other"
"You don't need to do X, but it may still be useful to do it, so that you can socialize/talk among each other"

So.... X =

...turn on your phone...?
...discuss/talk to the person next to you?
...take a break?
...go to the toilet?
...arrive early / stay behind late?
...use your instant messaging program?
User avatar
psymann
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:29 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:57 pm

Are fire drills relevant?No

So.... X =

...turn on your phone...?
...discuss/talk to the person next to you?
...take a break?
...go to the toilet?
...arrive early / stay behind late?
...use your instant messaging program?None of these--it's something more obvious.
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby Grip » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:35 pm

X = sit still? stand still? don't move? get out of here? kiss? hug?

are games relevant?
Grip
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:47 am
Location: Central Florida, USA

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:20 pm

X = sit still? stand still? don't move? get out of here?No--In some sense the exact opposite, in fact. All the others are OTWT. kiss? hug?

are games relevant?No
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby Grip » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:22 pm

X - get in here? stay here? stay in this room?
Grip
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:47 am
Location: Central Florida, USA

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby psymann » Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:57 pm

biograd wrote:So.... X =

...turn on your phone...?
...discuss/talk to the person next to you?
...take a break?
...go to the toilet?
...arrive early / stay behind late?
...use your instant messaging program?None of these--it's something more obvious.


It can't be more obvious - if it was, I'd have thought of it first! ;-)
User avatar
psymann
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:29 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby biograd » Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:59 pm

X - get in here?Effectively, this--though the other two are certainly implied... stay here? stay in this room?

Teachers in nearly every school in the world tell their students "You must come to class" and yet also "This is not the time to chat with each other". In a university statistics class, therefore, it was rather amusing to be told "You don't need to come to class; however, you still might find it helpful, because then you can talk to each other". Of course the meaning is a bit different in this situation--while there are lecture notes online and the professors don't care who attends class as long as they do the work, it's not an excuse to not learn the material, and "talk to each other" means "discuss the material when I'm not lecturing at the moment", not "talk about irrelevant stuff in such a manner that it disrupts the class"!

*********************************SPOILER*************************************************
biograd
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [Biograd] Contradictions

Postby Grip » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:08 pm

Interesting!
Grip
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:47 am
Location: Central Florida, USA


Return to Solved Lateral Thinking Puzzles

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 5 guests
cron