[psymann] Swimmer

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[psymann] Swimmer

Postby psymann » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:29 pm

Sally walked up to me and asked to buy a screwdriver. I had never met her before, but I had very good reason to believe that she was a good swimmer, which indeed she was. How could I be so sure?
Last edited by psymann on Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby Tiger » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:36 pm

Sally = H/A/F?
You = H/A/M?

Were you at your place of work?
Was she asking you for this because you work somewhere that sells "screwdrivers"?

Screwdriver as in:
The tool?
The drink?

Did you believe she was a good swimmer because of:
A characteristic of her body? Hair?
Something she was wearing or holding?
How she asked to buy a screwdriver?
Something that happened earlier?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby psymann » Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:09 pm

Sally = H/A/F? Yes
You = H/A/M? Yes

Were you at your place of work? Yes
Was she asking you for this because you work somewhere that sells "screwdrivers"? Yes

Screwdriver as in:
The tool? Yes
The drink? No

Did you believe she was a good swimmer because of:
A characteristic of her body? No Hair? No
Something she was wearing or holding? No
How she asked to buy a screwdriver? No
Something that happened earlier? Yope
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby Tiger » Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:38 pm

Is your place of work near a body or water or a swimming pool?
Do you see good swimmers on a regular basis?

Would the puzzle be the same if the statement had the word "hammer" instead of screwdriver? Drill? Lollipop? Dog?

Did she buy the screwdriver in the end?
Is the method of payment relevant?
Did you recognize Sally's last name on her credit card?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby Balin » Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:18 am

Would she have had to be a good swimmer to get to your place of work?
Is it relevant why she wanted a screwdriver? Did/do you know why she wanted a screwdriver?
Are tan lines relevant?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby WiZ » Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:49 am

Was there anything relevant about the specifications of the screwdriver that helped you make the connection?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby rcb » Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:54 am

Is it relevant how you afterwards determined that she really is a good swimmer?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby Twilightseeker » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:07 am

Was it because of something she said or how she said it? Language relevant? Special terminology or jargon? Did one or more of her words have a double meaning?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby psymann » Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:52 pm

Tiger:

Is your place of work near a body or water or a swimming pool? No
Do you see good swimmers on a regular basis? No

Would the puzzle be the same if the statement had the word "hammer" instead of screwdriver? Yes
Drill? Yes
Lollipop? Yes
Dog? Yes

Did she buy the screwdriver in the end? Yes, it was a short cross-head one with a yellow handle; she was going to use it to tighten a door handle.
Is the method of payment relevant? No
Did you recognize Sally's last name on her credit card? No, but clever thought!


---------------
Balin:

Would she have had to be a good swimmer to get to your place of work? No

Is it relevant why she wanted a screwdriver? No
Did/do you know why she wanted a screwdriver? No

Are tan lines relevant? No - nice idea - she probably had them, but she had a cardigan on so I never saw any.


---------------
WiZ:

Was there anything relevant about the specifications of the screwdriver that helped you make the connection? No


---------------
rcb:

Is it relevant how you afterwards determined that she really is a good swimmer? No - though as it happened, it was because I asked her and she confirmed it.


---------------
Twilightseeker:

Was it because of something she said or how she said it? No
Language relevant? Special terminology or jargon? Did one or more of her words have a double meaning? Therefore no, as she didn't say anything relevant (she just said "Could I get this please?" while handing over a screwdriver), although there's perhaps an 'ish' in those questions somewhere.
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby Balin » Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:12 pm

You had never "met" her before, but had you seen her before? At your place of work? On the news?
Did this take place at a cash register?
Are any recent events involved? Swimming competitions?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby Twilightseeker » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:14 pm

Something to do with how she moved or walked? A habit she appeared to have? The time of day she came into the store? The direction she came from? The direction in which she left?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby psymann » Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:05 pm

Balin:

You had never "met" her before, but had you seen her before? No At your place of work? On the news?
Did this take place at a cash register? Yes - I was stood at my cash register - she was obviously moving around a bit in order to shop for a screwdriver.


Are any recent events involved? Swimming competitions? No, no events relevant before she arrived at my shop.
[
EDIT - probably misleading answer to that last one, sorry:
It's a bit of an 'ish' answer I think around definition of 'recent' and 'involved'.

No particularly 'recent' events are involved before she arrived at my shop, but...
Yes, a past event is relevant to the plot, and yes, it is to do with a swimming competition.
]


Twilightseeker:

Something to do with how she moved or walked? No
A habit she appeared to have? No
The time of day she came into the store? No

The direction she came from? No
The direction in which she left? No
Last edited by psymann on Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby rcb » Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:43 pm

Is anyone else relevant? Does your shop sell also items used in swimming / diving? Is there a TV inside the shop? (Which maybe was presenting news from swimming competitions)
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby Tiger » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:41 pm

Are you psychic?

If Sally had stayed inside her home for 2 weeks, not leaving once, and then went to your shoppe to buy a screwdriver first thing, would you have known that she was a good swimmer?

Was Sally your first customer of your shift? Relevant?

Would you have known she was a good swimmer if you were blind? Deaf? Anosmic?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby psymann » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:52 am

rcb:

Is anyone else relevant? No

Does your shop sell also items used in swimming / diving? No. Though we do sell some waterproof torches, which you might be interested in if you want to take a light source while diving. They're very reasonably priced at only 29.99, and you can choose from blue or green, and they come with a 10-year guarantee. I have one myself; it's really good. We open at 9am if you want to come and have a look.

Is there a TV inside the shop? No (Which maybe was presenting news from swimming competitions)


Tiger:

Are you psychic? No. (I'm psymann; psychic is my cousin)

If Sally had stayed inside her home for 2 weeks, not leaving once, and then went to your shoppe to buy a screwdriver first thing, would you have known that she was a good swimmer? Yes - All other circumstances being the same, I would have been exactly as sure as in the original puzzle (which is to say not 'known' but 'been pretty sure')

Was Sally your first customer of your shift? No
Relevant? No

Would you have known she was a good swimmer if you were blind? No
Deaf? Yes
Anosmic? Yes
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby rcb » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:38 am

Were you pretty sure that she was a good swimmer as opposed to one who knows how to swim, without being necessarily good at it? And when asking you're just being polite by saying that she swims well?

Did she make some specific gesture? Move in a certain way? Did she forget something and made a flip turn to get to that object?

If you had had only the chance of observing her from a distance, without a conversation, would you have reached the same conclusion?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby Tiger » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:33 pm

Would you have suspected she was a good swimmer if you encountered her somewhere other than the shoppe?

If Sally knocked on your home front door at 5am, and you answered her in your pajamas, and she said "Hi I'm Sally, I'd like to buy a screwdriver," would you be pretty sure she was a good swimmer?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby GalFisk » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:31 pm

Do you know anything more than a layperson about good swimmers? Are you a good swimmer? Good swimmer=one who swims professionally? Competitively? Just really well?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby psymann » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:47 pm

========================

Balin from earlier:

Are any recent events involved? Swimming competitions? No, no events relevant before she arrived at my shop.


Hmm, worried I might have misled here, sorry. Though it's a bit of an 'ish' answer I think around definition of 'recent' and 'involved'.

No particularly 'recent' events are involved before she arrived at my shop, but...
Yes, a past event is relevant to the plot, and yes, it is to do with a swimming competition.


Sorry for that :oops:

=======================


rcb:

Were you pretty sure that she was a good swimmer as opposed to one who knows how to swim, without being necessarily good at it? Yes
And when asking you're just being polite by saying that she swims well? Not quite sure I understand the question for this one, but I had good reason to assume she was a good swimmer, and the answer she gave to the question I asked confirmed I was correct in my assumption

Did she make some specific gesture? No
Move in a certain way? No
Did she forget something and made a flip turn to get to that object? Hee hee, no

If you had had only the chance of observing her from a distance, without a conversation, would you have reached the same conclusion? If all I had done was seen the woman out of context at a distance, then no, I wouldn't have known she was a swimmer.


Tiger:

Would you have suspected she was a good swimmer if you encountered her somewhere other than the shoppe? That would depend on the circumstances.

If Sally knocked on your home front door at 5am, and you answered her in your pajamas, and she said "Hi I'm Sally, I'd like to buy a screwdriver," would you be pretty sure she was a good swimmer? I wouldn't be pretty sure of anything that that time in the morning; I struggle to spell my own name or tie my shoelaces or walk in a straight line at 5am! :-o ;-) ... but the real answer to this is the same as your previous question - it would depend on other circumstances.


GalFisk:

Do you know anything more than a layperson about good swimmers? Not sure that 'about good swimmers' is the correct phrase, but I do know something related to swimming that the rest of you working out this puzzle probably do not know.

Are you a good swimmer? No, I am a terrible swimmer, unless you define 'swimming' as 'sinking while choking on water after only five strokes of almost-breaststroke with a not-quite screw-kick. ;-)

Good swimmer=one who swims professionally? Competitively? Just really well?
The best way I can describe it is: 'If a Good Runner was someone who could run a double-marathon and still live to tell the tale, and a Good Cyclist was someone who could physically cycle the Tour de France route without being hospitalised, and a Good Mountaineer is someone who could climb Mont Blanc without dying, then a swimmer of similar quality would be a Good Swimmer'.
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby rcb » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:16 pm

Is she a well-known person? Some world / Olympic champion? Did you ask her simply if she is a good swimmer, or did you recognize her personally (" Are you Sally X., the famous champion?")

Are swimming styles relevant?

You said that your assumption was not based on: a characteristic of her body. hair, something she was wearing or holding, something she said, some gesture or some movement, correct?

Also - not seeing her before: you never saw her in person? Have you seen her in a picture? On television? Did she bear some resemblance with another person, incidentally also a good swimmer? Did you read about her? Hear something on the news?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby Twilightseeker » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:24 pm

Was this thing something you noticed visually? If so, was it:

-Something about, in, or on her body?
-Something she physically did (movement, actions, etc)?
-Something near her?
-Was the visual cue not even related to her herself?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby psymann » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:01 am

rcb:

Is she a well-known person? No
Some world / Olympic champion? No, just one of the better swimmers in her age category at state level.
Did you ask her simply if she is a good swimmer No, the exact question I asked her was "Did you 'X'", to which the answer 'Yes' meant without doubt she had to be a good swimmer (I'm assuming she wasn't lying).
or did you recognize her personally No (" Are you Sally X., the famous champion?")

Are swimming styles relevant? Hmm... I was going to say a flat 'No', but it's an outside possibility that it could be relevant - depends a bit on what route you take to work out the puzzle ;-)

You said that your assumption was not based on: a characteristic of her body. hair, something she was wearing or holding, something she said, some gesture or some movement, correct? All correct, based on my interpretation of 'gesture or some movement', though see also answer below.

Also - not seeing her before: you never saw her in person? Correct
Have you seen her in a picture? On television? No; I had never seen her or any picture/image of her before.
Did she bear some resemblance with another person, incidentally also a good swimmer? No
Did you read about her? Hear something on the news? No; I had never heard of her before at all - I wasn't aware of her existence until she turned up at my shop.



Twilightseeker:

Was this thing something you noticed visually? Yes

If so, was it:

-Something about, in, or on her body? No

-Something she physically did Yes
-- movement No - definitely not 'gesture' as asked previously, and not really 'movement' either.
-- actions Yes - this is correct. One action. An action which is not a gesture and not really a movement either - I mean yes, you have to move to do it, but it's as much a 'gesture or movement' as 'ate an apple' is.

-Something near her? I'll say 'Yesish' - the 'ish' because it depends on your definition of 'near' and also depends on timing because she was moving as she approached the shop, walked through the door, moved to the Tools section looking for a nice screwdriver, and came to the cash register to buy it, and therefore the distance between her and the visual clue kept changing - so surprisingly hard to answer!

-Was the visual cue not even related to her herself? No - the visual clue only existed because she had turned up that day, if that's what you mean.
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby Twilightseeker » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:28 am

Was it relevant what else (if anything) she was carrying (besides the screwdriver)? A object in her hands? A bag, purse? A small animal she brought into the store? Is chlorinated water relevant (i.e. the type of water she might presumably be swimming in)?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby psymann » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:22 am

Was it relevant what else (if anything) she was carrying (besides the screwdriver)? No A object in her hands? A bag, purse? A small animal she brought into the store?

Is chlorinated water relevant No
(i.e. the type of water she might presumably be swimming in)? FA
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby rcb » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:36 am

FA: was she swimming mainly in open water (lake, the sea) as opposed to a pool? Or at least did you recognize her as a good swimmer based on some specificity of this type of swimming? Did you ask her if she does jumps in the sea from a bridge / high cliff and her affirmative answer meant she must be a good swimmer?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby psymann » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:55 am

FA: was she swimming mainly in open water (lake, the sea) as opposed to a pool? Yes. My correct assumption, from the visual clue I had, was that she was good at open-water swimming in the sea. She may well have swum in lakes and swimming pools as well (I think many open-water swimmers train in swimming pools, particularly in winter, so probably swim more in pools than the sea), but that's kind of irrelevant. I assumed she was a good open-water swimmer, because I assumed that she was good at swimming in the sea, and that was enough to pass my definition of a good swimmer in general.

Or at least did you recognize her as a good swimmer based on some specificity of this type of swimming?
Did you ask her if she does jumps in the sea from a bridge / high cliff and her affirmative answer meant she must be a good swimmer?
With these two, if you're asking whether the way you swim for open-water is relevantly different from the way you would swim in a pool (eg different diving technique, equipment needed, etc), then no. And nothing to do with diving at all.


Also to return to a recent question:
Are swimming styles relevant?
The answer to this is now "No". The only remotely relevant bit was the fact that I was pretty sure she'd be a freestyle swimmer, because no-one ever swims open-water at her standard by doing anything else (Just try asking a swimmer if they want to enter an open-water 5km butterfly event and see the look of horror/disbelief on their face). Now you all know she's an open-water swimmer, that covers this bit too.
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby LemonCurry » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:12 am

Is salt relevant for this puzzle? Swallowing water? Wind? Waves? Avoiding obstacles?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby psymann » Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:24 pm

Is salt relevant for this puzzle? No
Swallowing water? No
Wind? No
Waves? No
Avoiding obstacles? No
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby Balin » Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:12 pm

Did she shade herself in some way? Not shade herself?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby psymann » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:55 pm

Did she shade herself in some way? Not shade herself? There was no shading (in any meaning of the word shading) going on, no. Apart from the fact that for a moment after arriving at my shop, but before coming in through the front door, she was in the sunshine outside, whereas she was in the shade when she was inside. But everything would have panned out just the same if my shop had been an open-air market with no shade at all, so any shade is irrelevant.
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby Balin » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:48 am

Backing up a ways, you gave a Yope that "something that happened earlier" as relevant.
Did anything relevant happen at the shop? Involving you? Involving Sally? That day? At some earlier time?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby Twilightseeker » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:15 am

Is it relevant what items in the store caught her attention? Did she look at something in a way that made you think she spent time swimming in the ocean or something?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby psymann » Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:26 am

Backing up a ways, you gave a Yope that "something that happened earlier" as relevant. I did indeed, well remembered!

Did anything relevant happen at the shop? Yes

Involving you? No
Involving Sally? Yes

That day? At some earlier time? It was just as Sally arrived at the shop, a minute or so before she came in through the shop's front door.
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby GalFisk » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:16 pm

Did it involve someone besides her? Did she react to something? Did something unexpected happen to her? Did she react reflexively to something? Did she do something only good swimmers do?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby Balin » Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:35 pm

Is her method of travel relevant? Did she drive to the store? Cycle? Walk?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby psymann » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:28 pm

GalFisk:

Did it involve someone besides her? No
Did she react to something? No
Did something unexpected happen to her? No
Did she react reflexively to something? No
Did she do something only good swimmers do? No


Balin:

Is her method of travel relevant? Yes
Did she drive to the store? Yes
Cycle? No
Walk? No
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby GalFisk » Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:53 pm

Relevant how she drove? Parked? Got out? Walked? Is her car relevant? Something in or on it?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby psymann » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:32 pm

Relevant how she drove? No
Parked? No
Got out? No
Walked? No

Is her car relevant? Yes
Something in or on it? Yes
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby LemonCurry » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:54 pm

Is her number plate relevant? Does it spell the name of a swimming resort?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby rcb » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:02 pm

Did she have a logo on the car? A sticker? Was she carrying something relevant with the car?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby psymann » Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:03 pm

LemonCurry:

Is her number plate relevant? Yes
Does it spell the name of a swimming resort? No


rcb:

Did she have a logo on the car? No
A sticker? No
Was she carrying something relevant with the car? No
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby GalFisk » Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:44 pm

Is it a vanity plate? Does it say something related to swimming? Products or brands relevant?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby psymann » Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:43 am

Is it a vanity plate? Yes (assuming that's the same as I'd call a 'personalised number plate')
Does it say something related to swimming? Yes
Products or brands relevant? No


The number plate was:

RCS 143
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby LemonCurry » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:47 pm

Does this refer to a swimmimg performance? A swimming technique?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby Balin » Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:04 pm

Does 143 refer to a distance? A time?
Is there anything else relevant about the plate? Is a license plate frame relevant?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby GalFisk » Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:16 pm

Is it a record? A team name? Is she the 143rd to accomplish something? Are R, C and S separate things?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby WiZ » Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:21 pm

Is how the plate reads in a rearview mirror relevant? Does the SC stand for swimming club? Swimming certificate (visions of Arnold Rimmer are dancing in my head)?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby psymann » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:26 pm

LemonCurry:

Does this refer to a swimmimg performance? Yes
A swimming technique? No


Balin:

Does 143 refer to a distance? No
A time? No
Is there anything else relevant about the plate? No
Is a license plate frame relevant? No


GalFisk:

Is it a record? No
A team name? No
Is she the 143rd to accomplish something? Yes
Are R, C and S separate things? No


WiZ:

Is how the plate reads in a rearview mirror relevant? No
Does the SC stand for swimming club? No - it's RCS, not RSC, by the way. Though you're nearly right with the 'Swimming' for the S.
Swimming certificate (visions of Arnold Rimmer are dancing in my head)? No, and there's no microdot on the certificate with the answer either ;-)
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby Grip » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:40 pm

Does the R stand for record? does the S stand for just swim? is she the 143rd to swim some channel? had you seen other cars with the same license plate before?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby rcb » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:43 pm

Does SC stand for "Swimming Club"? Does "R" stand for "Record"?
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby psymann » Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:58 am

rcb:

Does SC stand for "Swimming Club"? No, because it's CS not SC
Does "R" stand for "Record"? No


Grip:

Does the R stand for record? No
does the S stand for just swim? Yes
is she the 143rd to swim some channel? Yesp!
had you seen other cars with the same license plate before? Yes


I think that's close enough for....

***************Spoiler***************

I work in a hardware shop, and she'd parked her car outside my shop before coming in to make a purchase. I could see through the window that her car's numberplate was RCS 143.

I live in Western Australia, and there's an annual event to swim from the coast to Rottnest Island, 20km away. Some people do it as a relay in teams, but the real nutcases do it as one long solo swim. Those that complete it solo are allowed to purchase a personalised numberplate, which is RCS (for Rottnest Channel Swim) followed by a number. Seeing that on her car led me to the almost-certain knowledge that she was a good swimmer.


-----
I don't actually work in a hardware shop and the actual scene is completely fictional, but I do really live in Western Australia, and the number plate bit is true (at least, I'm pretty sure the numbers just count up from 1 and are therefore the n'th person to complete it). So every so often when driving around Perth you come up behind someone driving a car with "RCS 123" or similar, and know that they are a good swimmer - because being able to swim 20km solo across the sea is quite an achievement!

And, unlike a personalised number plate that just says "4SUM SWIM" or "SWIMMER" or similar, having a Rottnest Channel Swim number plate really does mean you're good, and not just that you think you're good, because that format is reserved for the event and they won't permit anyone else to get them (not even those that do it as a two-person relay).

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Re: [psymann] Swimmer

Postby Balin » Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:34 am

Very interesting factoid, and a very nice puzzle!
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Re: [psymann] Swimmer --SOLVED--

Postby Tiger » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:52 pm

I love how thorough you were with the scenario, down to the type and color of screwdriver and the price of the waterproof torches...
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