[JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard

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[JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard

Postby JenBurdoo » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:09 pm

In commemoration of the sinking of the USS Reuben James 75 years ago tonight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1U5ngze280

During World War Two, serving on submarines was the most dangerous job in the combatant navies. Serving aboard destroyers, however, was the second most dangerous job - for the exact same reason. What was it?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] What were their names?

Postby GalFisk » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:41 pm

Torpedoes relevant? Depth bombs? Mines? Other weapons? Is destroyer work dangerous because they go where the subs go? Is the danger that the vessel is destroyed? Or damaged? Drowning relevant? Burning? Being blown up? Being lost at sea? Is a relevant weapon just as dangerous for the user as the target? Natural hazards relevant? If so: reefs? Shallows? Weather? Currents?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] What were their names?

Postby JenBurdoo » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:55 pm

Torpedoes relevant? Depth bombs? This. Mines? Other weapons? Is destroyer work dangerous because they go where the subs go? Is the danger that the vessel is destroyed? Could be, but more likely something closely related. Or damaged? Drowning relevant? Burning? Being blown up? This. Being lost at sea? Is a relevant weapon just as dangerous for the user as the target? Yes. Natural hazards relevant? If so: reefs? Shallows? Weather? Currents? No.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby Balin » Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:04 am

Would the destroyers drop the depth bombs on the submarines? Would the shockwave from the explosions harm the destroyers? The soldiers on the destroyers?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby JenBurdoo » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:36 am

Would the destroyers drop the depth bombs on the submarines? They might, but not necessarily. Would the shockwave from the explosions harm the destroyers? Possibly, but this is not the primary reason for the danger. The soldiers on the destroyers? Strictly, no.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby Balin » Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:04 pm

I don't have much direct knowledge of different types of military ships, so pardon if this question seems obvious or silly:
Would the soldiers (sailors) on the decks of the destroyers be in danger? Those inside the destroyers?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby JenBurdoo » Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:28 am

I don't have much direct knowledge of different types of military ships, so pardon if this question seems obvious or silly:
Would the soldiers (sailors) on the decks of the destroyers be in danger? Those inside the destroyers? No to both, technically. Excellent question.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby LemonCurry » Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:42 am

Would many destroyer servicemen get transferred to submarine service?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby biograd » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:10 pm

Would the depth bombs tend to prematurely explode in storage on/in the destroyers before being deployed against the submarines?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby JenBurdoo » Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:16 pm

Would many destroyer servicemen get transferred to submarine service? No.

Would the depth bombs tend to prematurely explode in storage on/in the destroyers before being deployed against the submarines? No. Assume the depth bombs are in proper condition.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby GalFisk » Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:22 pm

Are the depth bombs a danger: in storage? In use? After exploding? Submarine wreckage relevant? Relevant how the bombs get into the water? Are the destroyers a danger to other destroyers?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby JenBurdoo » Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:50 pm

Are the depth bombs a danger: in storage? In use? After exploding? No to all. Submarine wreckage relevant? No. Relevant how the bombs get into the water? Yes! But look out for false assumptions. Are the destroyers a danger to other destroyers? Not with depth charges, normally.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby GalFisk » Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:01 pm

Are the bombs: launched through the air from the boat? Dropped from the boat? Ejected through an opening in the hull? Are they rolled? Do the mechanisms needed for deplying the depth bombs pose the danger?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby JenBurdoo » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:08 am

Are the bombs: launched through the air from the boat? Dropped from the boat? Ejected through an opening in the hull? Are they rolled? Do the mechanisms needed for deplying the depth bombs pose the danger? No to all. False assumption.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby Balin » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:08 am

Are the bombs already in the water when they are deployed? Are they constructed in the water?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby JenBurdoo » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:20 am

Are the bombs already in the water when they are deployed? Yyyyyes. Are they constructed in the water? No.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby GalFisk » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:26 am

Do they explode if the ship is attacked? Are they attached to the outside of the ship? Towed after it? Do they ever relevantly float?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby JenBurdoo » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:29 am

Do they explode if the ship is attacked? Under different conditions, some of which I'm ignoring for purposes of the puzzle because one of them seems particularly apt. Are they attached to the outside of the ship? Typically. Towed after it? No. Do they ever relevantly float? No.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby rcb » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:49 pm

Would the same danger have arisen if, for the sake of example, the depth charges were replaced by metal barrels (with no explosive present)?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby JenBurdoo » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:29 pm

Would the same danger have arisen if, for the sake of example, the depth charges were replaced by metal barrels (with no explosive present)? Definitely not.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby GalFisk » Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:28 pm

Relevant how the charges are set to go off? Do they go off after a certain time? At a certain external pressure? When near certain objects, such as steel? Is the danger that they may explode while still attached to the ship? That they may return to the ship after being released? Or never get away from it? Is the ship's wake relevant? Its propeller (s)?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby JenBurdoo » Sun Nov 06, 2016 11:49 pm

Relevant how the charges are set to go off? Yes. Do they go off after a certain time? At a certain external pressure? This. When near certain objects, such as steel? Is the danger that they may explode while still attached to the ship? Yes. That they may return to the ship after being released? Or never get away from it? Is the ship's wake relevant? Its propeller (s)? None of the rest.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby GalFisk » Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:02 am

Do they explode because they are exposed to external pressure above the limit? Because the mechanism is affected in some other way to think the pressure is high enough? Waves relevant? Sea creatures? Other natural causes? Manmade causes? Is the danger that when a destroyer sinks, all depth bombs go off at once, posing a danger to nearby ships?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby JenBurdoo » Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:47 pm

Do they explode because they are exposed to external pressure above the limit? Yes. Because the mechanism is affected in some other way to think the pressure is high enough? No. Waves relevant? No. Sea creatures? No. Other natural causes? No. Manmade causes? For SVV of "manmade causes." Is the danger that when a destroyer sinks, all depth bombs go off at once, posing a danger to nearby ships? Why do they all go off at once?

There are three dangers of depth charges to the ships that carry them. Two you've found:

1. When hit, the explosives go off just like a magazine, destroying the entire ship.

2. The ship is too slow to escape the explosion of its own charges after dropping them.

3. ???
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby GalFisk » Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:53 pm

So 3. does not include the bombs going off because the destroyer sinks? Are the bombs so close together that one exploding sets off the others? If so, does this always happen when one goes off? Only under certain conditions? Does one go off because it goes to deep into the water? Do they all go off because they're all exposed to high pressure? Is the pressure wave from one going off enough to set off the trigger on its neighbors?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby JenBurdoo » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:21 am

So 3. does not include the bombs going off because the destroyer sinks? Incorrect, explore. Are the bombs so close together that one exploding sets off the others? This is what happens in the first case. If so, does this always happen when one goes off? Irr. Only under certain conditions? This. Does one go off because it goes too deep into the water? Yes. Do they all go off because they're all exposed to high pressure? Yes. Is the pressure wave from one going off enough to set off the trigger on its neighbors? Irr.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby GalFisk » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:27 am

So 3. begins with a sinking destroyer? Relevant why it sinks? How it sinks? How deep it goes before the bombs go off?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby JenBurdoo » Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:50 am

So 3. begins with a sinking destroyer? Yes. Relevant why it sinks? No. How it sinks? No. How deep it goes before the bombs go off? It may depend on their depth setting; assume not very deep.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby GalFisk » Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:25 am

And then all bombs go off at once? Killing survivors in the water? Survivors in lifeboats? Damaging nearby ships? Does one bomb going off cause the others to go off? Or do they trigger independently, but simultaneously?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (quickie)

Postby JenBurdoo » Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:52 pm

And then all bombs go off at once? Yes. Killing survivors in the water? Precisely. Survivors in lifeboats? Damaging nearby ships? Does one bomb going off cause the others to go off? Or do they trigger independently, but simultaneously? Either.


Spoiler:


One of the most ironic dangers of serving aboard a subchaser is that, when sunk, the depth charges often went off as the sinking vessel reached their preset depth, killing the survivors in the water.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Hoist by their own petard (Solved)

Postby biograd » Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:06 pm

This goes to show how readily pressure waves move through water--the fact that even after traveling up to the surface, the shock waves are still strong enough to injure a person. I don't know how deep these charges were set to go off, but I'd guess a few hundred feet (though maybe less in some cases).
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