[SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

An archive of solved lateral thinking puzzles.

Moderators: peter365, Balin, kalira, JenBurdoo, Tiger

[SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby SurfingPikachu » Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:36 pm

Posting my first puzzle to see how it feels like!

Bill was an obnoxious, nay, insufferable asshole of a billionaire. It was thus to the dismay of the other rich socialites when they discovered that he was on board the same luxury cruise as them. By the end of the second day, some were wondering if they could get away with throwing him overboard if they paid their lawyers well enough. The next morning, Bill was found stabbed in his room. Many muttered that he had it coming. Little did they know that the person who killed him was Juan, a member of the cleaning crew who had essentially no interaction with Bill and no grievance against him.

Why then did Juan kill Bill?
Last edited by SurfingPikachu on Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
SurfingPikachu
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby Earnest » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:48 pm

Posting my first puzzle to see how it feels like! congrats!!!!
kill Bill?...ps. you know how to exploit the name Bill ahahahah...I hoped Bill was killed by a katana xD

ok so...all H/A/M or H/A/F right? Was juan payed by other millionaires? Was Juan intended to kill Bill? Did Juan entered Bill's room to kill him?

Relevant time period? Was Bill a politician? Immogrant politics relevant? Was Bill famous? Did juan know Bill from newspapers? TV?
Earnest
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby GalFisk » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:07 pm

Did Juan intend to kill Bill? To kill anyone at all? Was the murder planned? Did Juan do anything relevant wrong apart from the murder? Relevant what Bill was stabbed with? Did Juan know who he killed? Was Bill ever relevantly obnoxious to Juan? Or anyone he cared about? Was the killing revenge? Self defense? A cover-up? Accidental?
GalFisk
 
Posts: 7190
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 8:03 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby SurfingPikachu » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:29 am

Posting my first puzzle to see how it feels like! congrats!!!! :P Thanks!
kill Bill?...ps. you know how to exploit the name Bill ahahahah...I hoped Bill was killed by a katana xD Sadly, a katana would not be easily available on board.

ok so...all H/A/M or H/A/F right? Yes Was juan payed by other millionaires? No Was Juan intended to kill Bill? Juan did intend to kill Bill Did Juan entered Bill's room to kill him? Yes

Relevant time period? Irr, anything that fits the setting is fine. Motive not particular to the setting or time period. Was Bill a politician? No, irr Immogrant politics relevant? No Was Bill famous? More like infamous? At least among those in the know, and he is a billionaire after all. But he was not a household name. Did juan know Bill from newspapers? TV? Irr

Did Juan intend to kill Bill? Yes To kill anyone at all? Yes Was the murder planned? Yes Did Juan do anything relevant wrong apart from the murder? Juan did not do anything wrong wrt his goals, except in the sense of "murdering people is wrong" Relevant what Bill was stabbed with? Let's say an easily accessible steak knife, and not, say, a katana that everyone knew belonged to Juan Did Juan know who he killed? Yes Was Bill ever relevantly obnoxious to Juan? No, Bill treated cleaning crew as invisible, and Juan was ok with that Or anyone he cared about? No Was the killing revenge? No Self defense? No A cover-up? No Accidental? No
SurfingPikachu
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby hominid » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:16 am

Is Bill's obnoxious personality relevant? Was Juan aware of Bill's personality? Was he aware that Bill was widely disliked? Had he heard of Bill before the cruise? Did he observe Bill's actions? Are any specific people relevant aside from Juan and Bill?

Did Juan think that killing Bill would give him financial gain? Did he steal something from Bill? Did he plan to? Attempt to? Did he kill anyone else? Commit any other crimes? Did he expect to get away with the murder? Did he frame someone specific?
hominid
 
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby Earnest » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:13 am

Did Juan noticed something on Bill that he wanted to steal? Like a ring? A gold tooth? Did Juan know that Bill was rich? Can we assume that, after the murder, Juan reached his goal? If so, would he have reached his goal also after having killed someone else than Bill? Would it be more difficult to escape had he killed someone else? I mean...maybe he heard the millionaires that talked about the possibility of killing Bill so that he thought that it would be easier to deflect suspicions by killing him and not another millionaire? Did he enter Bill's room exploiting the fact that he was of cleaning service so that he presumably has access to each room?
Earnest
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby Balin » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:14 pm

Was Bill's room locked before his body was found? Did Juan enter Bill's room through the main door? Did he exit the room through the main door?

Had Juan ever met Bill before the cruise? Did he relevantly encounter Bill during the cruise at all, aside from murdering him?

Was Bill killed because of the room he was in?
Balin
 
Posts: 6143
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby SurfingPikachu » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:33 pm

Is Bill's obnoxious personality relevant? Yes Was Juan aware of Bill's personality? Yes Was he aware that Bill was widely disliked? Yes Had he heard of Bill before the cruise? Assume no Did he observe Bill's actions? Yes Are any specific people relevant aside from Juan and Bill? Yes, call him Alan

Did Juan think that killing Bill would give him financial gain? No Did he steal something from Bill? No Did he plan to? No Attempt to? No Did he kill anyone else? Yes, Alan Commit any other crimes? No Did he expect to get away with the murder? Yes Did he frame someone specific? No

Did Juan noticed something on Bill that he wanted to steal? No Like a ring? No A gold tooth? No Did Juan know that Bill was rich? Everyone on the cruise was rich Can we assume that, after the murder, Juan reached his goal? No If so, would he have reached his goal also after having killed someone else than Bill? No Would it be more difficult to escape had he killed someone else? I mean...maybe he heard the millionaires that talked about the possibility of killing Bill so that he thought that it would be easier to deflect suspicions by killing him and not another millionaire? Yes Did he enter Bill's room exploiting the fact that he was of cleaning service so that he presumably has access to each room? Yes

Was Bill's room locked before his body was found? No Did Juan enter Bill's room through the main door? Yes Did he exit the room through the main door? Yes

Had Juan ever met Bill before the cruise? Assume no Did he relevantly encounter Bill during the cruise at all, aside from murdering him? He would have seen Bill now and then during his cleaning duties

Was Bill killed because of the room he was in? No
SurfingPikachu
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby Earnest » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:18 pm

Alan wanted to kill Bill as well? Did he use Juan as a mean to kill Bill? Was Juan captured at the ned? Relevant? Was Juan treated by Alan? His family? Was Juan forced to kill Bill?...series of terrible questions: did Juan kill Bill for fun (really don't know where the fun is)? For having lost a bet?

Or was Alan an accomplice of Juan? Was Alan rich? Part of the cleaning crew as well?
Earnest
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby SurfingPikachu » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:29 pm

Alan wanted to kill Bill as well? Nothing more than fantasising, if any Did he use Juan as a mean to kill Bill? No Was Juan captured at the ned? Assume no Relevant? No, puzzle could work even if he was Was Juan treated by Alan? His family? Threatened? No Was Juan forced to kill Bill? No ...series of terrible questions: did Juan kill Bill for fun (really don't know where the fun is)? No For having lost a bet? No

Or was Alan an accomplice of Juan? No Was Alan rich? Yes, he was a passenger Part of the cleaning crew as well? No
SurfingPikachu
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby Earnest » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:34 pm

so...Juan wanted to kill Bill to have a personal benefit from it right? Did a fire happen? Or something that created confusion/panic on board? Was Juan trying to save himself? If there was another person in the room rather than Bill, would Juan have killed that person instead of Bill? Relevant what Bill was doing when Juan killed him?

Did Alan and Juan have a relevant interaction? Did Alan and Bill? Were Alan and Bill related to each other? Did Alan tell something to Juan? A lie maybe? Did Bill want to die? Did Bill have a twin? Did Bill effectively die? Was it part of a plan designed by Alan?By Bill? By Juan?
Does this alternative scenario fit as well the puzzle: they were in a hotel located in a mountain/everywhere on land. Bill is a normal rich guest (without any other rich person in the same hotel) and juan entered the room to kill Bill.
Or again:they were in a hotel located in a mountain/everywhere on land, the other conditions being unchanged and juan entered the room to kill Bill.
Earnest
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby hominid » Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:32 am

Is Alan's personality relevant? Is he nice? Mean?

Did Juan kill Alan before he killed Bill? After? Is it relevant how he killed Alan? Stabbing? Was Bill a witness to Alan's death? Was Alan a witness to Bill's death?
hominid
 
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby SurfingPikachu » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:51 pm

so...Juan wanted to kill Bill to have a personal benefit from it right? DOYD of "personal benefit". Juan didn't kill Bill for fun, but he didn't do it for money either. Did a fire happen? No Or something that created confusion/panic on board? No Was Juan trying to save himself? No If there was another person in the room rather than Bill, would Juan have killed that person instead of Bill? No Relevant what Bill was doing when Juan killed him? No, except that he had to be alone and not, say, harassing someone.

Did Alan and Juan have a relevant interaction? Apart from the murder? No-ish Did Alan and Bill? No Were Alan and Bill related to each other? No Did Alan tell something to Juan? No A lie maybe? No Did Bill want to die? No Did Bill have a twin? No Did Bill effectively die? People die if they are killed. Sorry, couldn't resist slipping in that joke. :P Was it part of a plan designed by Alan? No By Bill? No By Juan? Yes
Does this alternative scenario fit as well the puzzle: they were in a hotel located in a mountain/everywhere on land. Bill is a normal rich guest (without any other rich person in the same hotel Then no) and juan entered the room to kill Bill.
Or again:they were in a hotel located in a mountain Probably yes/everywhere on land Not if the harassed guests could simply leave to avoid Bill, the other conditions being unchanged and juan entered the room to kill Bill.


Is Alan's personality relevant? Yes-ish Is he nice? Mean? DOYD. Let's say he might ruthlessly crush some local businesses one day and then publicly donate to charity the next. Is that nice or mean?

Did Juan kill Alan before he killed Bill? After? This Is it relevant how he killed Alan? Yes-ish Stabbing? Yes Was Bill a witness to Alan's death? No Was Alan a witness to Bill's death? No
SurfingPikachu
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby Enjay » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:19 pm

Did Juan benefit financially from killing Alan? Was killing Alan the main goal? Was killing Bill necessary in order to be able to kill Alan?

Is it relevant how much time passed between killing Bill and killing Alan?

Was Alan's body discovered as well? If so, before Bill's? After? Was Juan suspected of killing Alan? Was anyone else suspected?
Enjay
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby SurfingPikachu » Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:54 am

Hi Enjay!

Did Juan benefit financially from killing Alan? No Was killing Alan the main goal? Yes Was killing Bill necessary in order to be able to kill Alan? No

Is it relevant how much time passed between killing Bill and killing Alan? Yes

Was Alan's body discovered as well? Yes If so, before Bill's? After? This Was Juan suspected of killing Alan? No Was anyone else suspected? No one specific
SurfingPikachu
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby Enjay » Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:44 am

Hi!

Was Alan also killed in his room?

Did Juan kill Alan seconds after killing Bill? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? Longer?

When Juan boarded the boat, did he already have a plan to kill both Bill and Alan? If not, when he formed the plan, was it a plan to kill both? Or a plan to kill one that then developed to include the other one?

Were Bill and Alan the only people Juan could have killed for his plan to work? Could he have killed them in the opposite order and still had his plan work? Could he have killed either of them in a different way?

Did Juan choose to kill Bill specifically because he was unpopular and therefore there would be lots of suspects? Was Alan popular on the boat?
Enjay
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby Earnest » Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:59 am

To be sure...this has nothing to do with Titanic right? Did juan plan to kill Alan as well? Is it necessary for the puzzle to work that everybody in the cruise are rich a part from members of the staff? Or could it work even if for instance just half of the passengers was rich and the other half was not?

Did Juan kill Bill for sentimental reasons? To hamper the investigations? Did he use the same knife to stab Bill and Alan? Did he then throw away the weapon? Relevant? Did Juan relevantly move one of the two dead bodies? Did Juan just need two dead bodies and kill Bill just because he knew he was hated? Had Bill a family? Is it relevant? Was Juan trying to direct the attention on the cruise? On something? On someone?

Was killing Bill part of an "higher plan"? I mean, the killing of Bill was planned in order to obtain another benefit for an association/group of people/political group he belonged to? Was it a sort of attack? If juan had kill someone else than Bill would he have reached his aim as well Or was him interested on one of Bill's items? Something belonging to Bill? Was juan in love with bill's daughter? Is Bill's legacy somehow involved? Was Bill's dead body intact?

Same questions with Alan in place of "Bill".
Earnest
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby SurfingPikachu » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:49 am

Was Alan also killed in his room? Yes

Did Juan kill Alan seconds after killing Bill? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? Longer? A day after Bill's body was found

When Juan boarded the boat, did he already have a plan to kill both Bill and Alan? No If not, when he formed the plan, was it a plan to kill both? Yes-ish Or a plan to kill one that then developed to include the other one? This sounds more correct

Were Bill and Alan the only people Juan could have killed for his plan to work? Yes Could he have killed them in the opposite order and still had his plan work? No Could he have killed either of them in a different way? As long as both were killed in a "normal", similar way

Did Juan choose to kill Bill specifically because he was unpopular and therefore there would be lots of suspects? Yes Was Alan popular on the boat? Average, not very liked nor hated


To be sure...this has nothing to do with Titanic right? Unrelated Did juan plan to kill Alan as well? Yes Is it necessary for the puzzle to work that everybody in the cruise are rich a part from members of the staff? No Or could it work even if for instance just half of the passengers was rich and the other half was not? It could, except poor people don't usually take cruises I guess. Depends as well on what you would consider "rich".

Did Juan kill Bill for sentimental reasons? No To hamper the investigations? Yes Did he use the same knife to stab Bill and Alan? Yes Did he then throw away the weapon? Relevant? Irr Did Juan relevantly move one of the two dead bodies? No Did Juan just need two dead bodies and kill Bill just because he knew he was hated? No Had Bill a family? Is it relevant? Irr Was Juan trying to direct the attention on the cruise? Yes-ish On something? On someone? Closer to this

Was killing Bill part of an "higher plan"? No I mean, the killing of Bill was planned in order to obtain another benefit for an association/group of people/political group he belonged to? No Was it a sort of attack? No If juan had kill someone else than Bill would he have reached his aim as well No Or was him interested on one of Bill's items? No Something belonging to Bill? No Was juan in love with bill's daughter? No Is Bill's legacy somehow involved? No Was Bill's dead body intact? Yes

Same questions with Alan in place of "Bill". Same answers
SurfingPikachu
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby Earnest » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:31 am

Was Juan interested to something that Bill's presence hinder? Is the fact that Bill was alive dangerous for Juan? Or juan wanted to prevent Bill from doing something? Going somewhere? Are there relevant games made in the cruise? Such as poker? Gambling? Did Juan lose against Bill? You said Juan didn't have relevant interactions with Bill...but I mean...did Juan have interactions with Bill not as Juan but maybe pretending to be someone else? (sounds like a stupid question maybe) Is it relevant the fact that usually cruises stop in different places during their travel?

Did juan want someone else to be accused? Did he direct the attention toward Bill's murder? was it called the police? Relevant how investigations were conducted? Were them in the middle of the sea when Bill's murder happened? When Alan's murder happened? Relevant? While Juan was killing Bill did anyone (e.g. in the room near Bill's one) hear something? Did Bill scream? Cry for help? Relevant?

Was Alan aware of Bill's murder? If he was, was him concerned about the fact that he could be the next one to be killed? I mean...more than other passengers who certainly were frightened about having a murderer on the cruise.
Were there other murders apart from Bill's and Alan's one? Was it all organized/planned by someone with Juan? Did juan have accomplices? Relevant? Are games involved? (originally I was thinking to something like Juan who exploited a favorable situation like a murder-mistery dinner to kill Bill)


Did he disseminate evidences that brought to the accusation of someone else?
Earnest
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby Enjay » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:12 pm

Did the chaos or attention brought by the discovery of Bill's body allow Juan the opportunity to kill Alan unnoticed? Does Juan commit any other relevant crimes in this puzzle other than killing Bill and Alan?
Enjay
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby SurfingPikachu » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:53 pm

Was Juan interested to something that Bill's presence hinder? No Is the fact that Bill was alive dangerous for Juan? No Or juan wanted to prevent Bill from doing something? No Going somewhere? No Are there relevant games made in the cruise? Such as poker? Gambling? Irr Did Juan lose against Bill? No You said Juan didn't have relevant interactions with Bill...but I mean...did Juan have interactions with Bill not as Juan but maybe pretending to be someone else? (sounds like a stupid question maybe) No, and not a stupid question :D Is it relevant the fact that usually cruises stop in different places during their travel? No

Did juan want someone else to be accused? Yes-ish/Yope Did he direct the attention toward Bill's murder? No was it called the police? The police was called Relevant how investigations were conducted? Not to the puzzle itself Were them in the middle of the sea when Bill's murder happened? Yes When Alan's murder happened? Yes Relevant? Yes While Juan was killing Bill did anyone (e.g. in the room near Bill's one) hear something? No Did Bill scream? No Cry for help? No Relevant? Only in that if Juan was caught killing Bill, then the puzzle would not take place

Was Alan aware of Bill's murder? Yes If he was, was him concerned about the fact that he could be the next one to be killed? I mean...more than other passengers who certainly were frightened about having a murderer on the cruise. No, remember that people thought Bill had it coming
Were there other murders apart from Bill's and Alan's one? No Was it all organized/planned by someone with Juan? No Did juan have accomplices? No Relevant? Irr Are games involved? No (originally I was thinking to something like Juan who exploited a favorable situation like a murder-mistery dinner to kill Bill)

Did he disseminate evidences that brought to the accusation of someone else? No


Did the chaos or attention brought by the discovery of Bill's body Yes... allow Juan the opportunity to kill Alan Yesss... unnoticed? Almost, but not quite!!! Does Juan commit any other relevant crimes in this puzzle other than killing Bill and Alan? No
SurfingPikachu
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby Earnest » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:29 pm

Was the boat evacuated? If so...were lifeboats used? Relevant what was the weather like when the murders happened?

Was an alarm given? Was the boat in an emergency state when Bill's body was discovered? Were relevant measures undertaken? If so are those measures that allowed Juan to kill Alan? Reason why Juan wanted to kill Alan: revenge? Steal something? Escape? Avoid that something bad happened to him (juan)? To avoid to be abandoned on the boat as a poor member of the staff(maybe no place on lifeboats)? Did Bill steal Alan's clothes? Did juan pretend to be rich? Masked himself?...something like that?
Earnest
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby SurfingPikachu » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:59 pm

Was the boat evacuated? No If so...were lifeboats used? No Relevant what was the weather like when the murders happened? Irr

Was an alarm given? Was the boat in an emergency state when Bill's body was discovered? Were relevant measures undertaken?
A police report was made, an announcement to passengers was made, and crew members were stationed at Bill's room to ward off visitors until the cruise ship could reach land.

If so are those measures that allowed Juan to kill Alan?
No, if Juan could kill Bill successfully, then he could have just killed Alan first if not for other considerations (which is what you are supposed to guess). If anything, Bill's murder made it harder for him to kill Alan.

Reason why Juan wanted to kill Alan: revenge? Yes Steal something? No Escape? No Avoid that something bad happened to him (juan)? No To avoid to be abandoned on the boat as a poor member of the staff(maybe no place on lifeboats)? No Did Bill steal Alan's clothes? No Did juan pretend to be rich? No Masked himself?...something like that? No
SurfingPikachu
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby Earnest » Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:04 pm

if Juan could kill Bill successfully, then he could have just killed Alan first if not for other considerations (which is what you are supposed to guess)...I agree with you, but I have understood that it was irrelevant the fact that at the end juan was arrested or not, so my FA was about the success of Bill's murder.
Did police suspect on juan? Are their names relevant? The fact that one begin with B and the other one with A? Is the collection of their rooms somehow relevant? Did juan need Bill's room/an item in Bill's room to enter Alan's room/ to kill Alan? Did Juan enter the main door and exit the min door to kill Alan?
Relevant where the cruise took place? I mean...were there ice surrounding the boat? was the sea cold? Was the boat in a critical situation for which it needed help?

So...recap...A B J are the only three protagonists...J killed first B and the day after A exploiting the confusion created by the murder of B, right? The order of the murders need to be like that because the murder of B was necessary condition for the killing of A for revenge. Now...:
a) is it relevant to discover the reason why J wanted revenge on A? If so, does it constitute the reason why he killed B before of A? Revenge for sentimental reasons? For having been unfairly
Earnest
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby Balin » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:06 am

Did Juan kill Alan with the same weapon used to kill Bill? With the same type of weapon?
Balin
 
Posts: 6143
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby SurfingPikachu » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:31 am

if Juan could kill Bill successfully, then he could have just killed Alan first if not for other considerations (which is what you are supposed to guess)...I agree with you, but I have understood that it was irrelevant the fact that at the end juan was arrested or not, so my FA was about the success of Bill's murder.
I am not sure what you are confused about here, but let me try to clear up the confusion anyway. The puzzle asks about Juan's intention, and not about whether things turned out the way Juan intended. That's why I said it was irrelevant whether in the end Juan was arrested or not, because it does not change the fact that he, like any rational person, would not want to be arrested.

Note also that the puzzle is only asking "Why did Juan kill Bill?", not "Why did Juan kill Alan?", and also not "Explain everything that happened in detail".

Did police suspect on juan? No, and as explained above, irr Are their names relevant? No The fact that one begin with B and the other one with A? No Is the collection of their rooms somehow relevant? No Did juan need Bill's room/an item in Bill's room to enter Alan's room/ to kill Alan? No Did Juan enter the main door and exit the min door to kill Alan? Yes, irr
Relevant where the cruise took place? No I mean...were there ice surrounding the boat? No was the sea cold? Yes, irr Was the boat in a critical situation for which it needed help? No

So...recap...A B J are the only three protagonists...J killed first B and the day after A Yes exploiting the confusion There was no confusion. If you are referring to Enjay's near-answer, "attention" would be closer. created by the murder of B, right? The order of the murders need to be like that because the murder of B was necessary condition for the killing of A No, Juan could kill Alan without killing Bill, but then he would not achieve his goal/sub-goal of... for revenge. Now...:
a) is it relevant to discover the reason why J wanted revenge on A? If so, does it constitute the reason why he killed B before of A? Revenge for sentimental reasons? For having been unfairly Is this cut off?
Juan has a grievance against Alan, the specifics of which are not important, but it has to be a certain "type" of grievance for the puzzle to work (i.e., for Juan to understandably decide to kill Bill before Alan). Knowing what type of grievance would be very helpful to solving the puzzle. However, given the way the questions and answers have developed in this thread, I think that it is much more likely for someone to solve the puzzle first and then work out how the grievance is relevant from there. That said, it is still your choice which approach you prefer. :D


Edit:
Strange, it would usually prompt me that a new post has been added
Did Juan kill Alan with the same weapon used to kill Bill? Yes With the same type of weapon?
SurfingPikachu
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby Earnest » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:30 am

ok many thanks Surfing!

So...did J applied a specific symbol on B's skin? (like a symbol that drew everybody's attention).
The aim of J when killing B is to attract people's attention right? Did he do this painting/drawing something in Bill's room? By throwing something away from the ship? In general by doing something that made the police and people classify Bill's murder as strange? Did he try to attract their attention with the particular way the murder was committed? Or with something that he did before the murder? After? With the murder itself? Was the attention attracted by someone else like an alarm? Did the main effect(s) of directing the attention, aimed by J, happen the day after Bill was murdered? If so, is superstition relevant? Religion? Beliefs? Ghosts? The place where the ship finds itself the day after Bill's murder? Did something relevant happen during the night before A was killed and after B was murdered?

You said that he exploited this attention to kill A, in the sense that maybe A had bodyguards which were attracted by the murder somehow? In the sense that A was a simpler target after Bill's murder? Because of Alan's movements? Because of Alan's new habits after the murder? Did J relevantly throw the stub from a certain distance to kill one of the two?
Earnest
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby SurfingPikachu » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:51 am

So...did J applied a specific symbol on B's skin? (like a symbol that drew everybody's attention).
The aim of J when killing B is to attract people's attention right? Not in this sense Did he do this painting/drawing something in Bill's room? By throwing something away from the ship? In general by doing something that made the police and people classify Bill's murder as strange? Did he try to attract their attention with the particular way the murder was committed? Or with something that he did before the murder? After? With the murder itself? Was the attention attracted by someone else like an alarm? Did the main effect(s) of directing the attention, aimed by J, happen the day after Bill was murdered? If so, is superstition relevant? Religion? Beliefs? Ghosts? The place where the ship finds itself the day after Bill's murder? Did something relevant happen during the night before A was killed and after B was murdered? On the wrong track that is exactly opposite of the right track :P

You said that he exploited this attention to kill A, No, he exploited this "attention" while killing B then A in order to achieve a certain goal in the sense that maybe A had bodyguards which were attracted by the murder somehow? In the sense that A was a simpler target after Bill's murder? Because of Alan's movements? Because of Alan's new habits after the murder? Did J relevantly throw the stub from a certain distance to kill one of the two? Again OTWT



For those who do not want to sift through the thread, but still want one last drop of puzzley goodness, here is a helpful recap of all the pertinent facts.
In my humble but biased opinion, you should be able to solve the puzzle outright just from reading the recap alone.
I have also left out a few important answers, because if I put them into the recap, I might as well just post the solution.
(Someone just needs to read through the answers and put two and two together. /cries)

*** RECAP RECAP RECAP ***

Setting: rich passengers on a cruise ship far out at sea, 3-4 days after setting sail
Alan and Bill are rich passengers. Juan is a cleaning crew member.

Bill was hated by other passengers, to the extent that they fantasised about killing him, and do not find his death surprising.
Bill treated the crew as invisible, considering it beneath him to interact with them.
Juan had no grievance against Bill.

Alan was the type of billionaire who might ruthlessly crush some local businesses one day and then publicly donate to charity the next.
Alan was neither liked nor hated by other passengers, since this was considered normal billionaire behaviour.
Juan had a particular type of grievance against Alan.

Juan had the means to kill Alan without first killing Bill.
However, he killed Bill first, then killed Alan a day after Bill's body was found.
Both were similarly stabbed with a steak knife of the kind that would be easily accessible on the cruise ship.

Why would Juan feel the need to kill Bill first?
SurfingPikachu
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby GalFisk » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:40 am

Did he kill Bill as practice? Was he unsure about whether he would be able to kill someone? Could he have killed someone else first? Did he choose Bill because nobody liked him?
GalFisk
 
Posts: 7190
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 8:03 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby SurfingPikachu » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:45 pm

Did he kill Bill as practice? No Was he unsure about whether he would be able to kill someone? No, he was reasonably sure Could he have killed someone else first? No, it had to be Bill Did he choose Bill because nobody liked him? Yes
SurfingPikachu
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby Earnest » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:29 pm

ok maybe I have missed some answers. I'll let the other try, otherwise I would generate confusion.

Sorry!
Earnest
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby SurfingPikachu » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:39 pm

No no go ahead, no need to be sorry. You're just forgetting very very crucial answers, and running about in circles.
SurfingPikachu
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby Enjay » Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:19 pm

Could the answer to the question "why did Juan kill Bill" be vaguely but accurately given as "because he wanted to kill Alan, and killing Bill helped him achieve this goal"? Or more like "because he wanted to achieve x, and killing both Bill and Alan helped him achieve this goal"?

Are Alan's business-crushing, charity-giving activities relevant? Had Juan or someone connected to him suffered from Alan's business practices?

Did Juan intend that people would think the same person had killed both Bill and Alan?

Did Juan want other boat passengers to fear for their lives? Did he want to provoke any kind of relevant thoughts or emotions in the passengers or other staff members? Did the murders give Juan some kind of power he hadn't previously had? Or some kind of opportunity? Eg everyone was told to stay in their rooms but crew members could walk free? Or Juan was asked to search for evidence?
Enjay
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby SurfingPikachu » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:29 pm

Could the answer to the question "why did Juan kill Bill" be vaguely but accurately given as "because he wanted to kill Alan, and killing Bill helped him achieve this goal"? No Or more like "because he wanted to achieve x, and killing both Bill and Alan helped him achieve this goal"? Sounds a tiny bit weird, but yes

Are Alan's business-crushing, charity-giving activities relevant? Had Juan or someone connected to him suffered from Alan's business practices? Yes, and this may be a helpful clue

Did Juan intend that people would think the same person had killed both Bill and Alan? Yes!

Did Juan want other boat passengers to fear for their lives? No Did he want to provoke any kind of relevant thoughts or emotions in the passengers or other staff members? Yes Did the murders give Juan some kind of power he hadn't previously had? Or some kind of opportunity? Eg everyone was told to stay in their rooms but crew members could walk free? Or Juan was asked to search for evidence? No to these
SurfingPikachu
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby Earnest » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:39 pm

let's try to do a backward reasoning...so had J killed A and then B or just A, his aim wouldn't be achieved right?
the murder of B implies some measures, that are. a police report was made, an announcement to passengers was made, and crew members were stationed at Bill's room to ward off visitors until the cruise ship could reach land, right? Thus attention was attracted by B murder right?

After B was killed, did police relevantly know that the murderer was on the ship? Did they suspect on everybody? If so did they take relevant measures? Did those measure allow J as part of the cleaning crew to reach A? Was it ordered to all passengers to stay inside their rooms and the only one who were able to freely move were the cleaning crew and the staff in general? Did J relevantly know what the measures undertaken in a cruise in case of emergency (like a murder) were?
Did J have the implant necessity to kill someone in order the ship not to land or in order some emergency measures to be undertaken? Was the ship on the sea but near an haven? J had the means to kill A without killing B right? with means you mean the time, the weapon and the occasion? If so, did he kill B just for his bad behavior with others? I mean...ok it is because all members could be suspected of his murder...but this doesn't yet explain why he killed B having the means to kill just A...so did he want to be classified as serial killer? Would any person having Bill's behavior/being hated by the others be a good candidate to be killed following J's reasoning? If so did J killed B in a certain crucial moment of the trip?

Was the journey on the luxury boat near to the end? Did J want that the ship didn't reach land until he reached his aim? Relevant when the murder took place? At the beginning of the trip? At the end? In the middle? Was the journey an holiday? An assembly? Did the participant relevantly have something in common? The job?
Earnest
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby SurfingPikachu » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:10 pm

Earnest

let's try to do a backward reasoning... Yay! so had J killed A and then B or just A, his aim wouldn't be achieved right? Wouldn't be achieved
the murder of B implies some measures, that are. a police report was made, an announcement to passengers was made, and crew members were stationed at Bill's room to ward off visitors until the cruise ship could reach land, right? Yes Thus attention was attracted by B murder right? Yes, but don't let this confuse you

After B was killed, did police relevantly know that the murderer was on the ship? Yes Did they suspect on everybody? Not everybody ;) If so did they take relevant measures? Not yet, the ship was far out at sea Did those measure allow J as part of the cleaning crew to reach A? J could have reached A anytime he wanted Was it ordered to all passengers to stay inside their rooms and the only one who were able to freely move were the cleaning crew and the staff in general? No Did J relevantly know what the measures undertaken in a cruise in case of emergency (like a murder) were? Yes, but DLTCY
Did J have the implant necessity ??? to kill someone in order the ship not to land or in order some emergency measures to be undertaken? Sounds like no Was the ship on the sea but near an haven? No, far out at sea far from land J had the means to kill A without killing B right? Yes with means you mean the time, the weapon and the occasion? Yes If so, did he kill B just for his bad behavior with others? No I mean...ok it is because all members could be suspected of his murder...but this doesn't yet explain why he killed B having the means to kill just A... LOL! so did he want to be classified as serial killer? No Would any person having Bill's behavior/being hated by the others be a good candidate to be killed following J's reasoning? Yes If so did J killed B in a certain crucial moment of the trip? It didn't need to be one specific moment, but some moments would not work

Was the journey on the luxury boat near to the end? No Did J want that the ship didn't reach land until he reached his aim? Yes Relevant when the murder took place? At the beginning of the trip? At the end? In the middle? This, and relevant, but DLTCY Was the journey an holiday? An assembly? Did the participant relevantly have something in common? The job? All irr


*** RECAP ***
Setting: rich passengers on a cruise ship far out at sea, 3-4 days after setting sail, in the middle of the journey.
Alan and Bill are rich passengers. Juan is a cleaning crew member.
Being far out at sea, the police would know that the murderer must be someone on the ship, but couldn't take action until the ship reached land.

Juan observed that Bill was hated by other passengers, to the extent that they fantasised about killing him, and would not find his death surprising.
Juan observed that Bill treated the crew as invisible, considering it beneath him to interact with them.
Juan had no grievance against Bill. Juan knew that Bill's murder would have many suspects.

Juan knew that Alan was the type of billionaire who might ruthlessly crush some local businesses one day and then publicly donate to charity the next, because he or someone related in fact suffered from it.
Alan was neither liked nor hated by other passengers, since this was considered normal billionaire behaviour.

Juan knew that he had the means to kill Alan without first killing Bill.
However, he killed Bill first, then killed Alan a day after Bill's body was found.
Killing Bill, and the order of killing Bill before Alan, were important for Juan to achieve something.

Juan stabbed both with a steak knife of the kind that would be easily accessible on the cruise ship, intending for others to think that the murderer of both was the same person.

Why would Juan feel the need to kill Bill first?
SurfingPikachu
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby Earnest » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:47 pm

Was the killing of Bill thought for making Alan suffer more somehow? Was it functional for the revenge J should take on A? I mean I am not asking if it facilitate J's job in killing A, but if there is a logic in J's act like: the killing of B allow somehow to show everybody which kind of person A was/justify the reason of the murder?

Juan knew that Bill's murder would have many suspects --> so is J's logic something like: because nobody has ever investigate on Alan's businesses and bad actions, he killed B so that anyone were suspected and thus investigated?
Earnest
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby GalFisk » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:06 pm

Did Juan want to achieve: getting away with murder? Getting someone specific suspected for murder? Before he killed Bill, would it be impossible for him to kill Alan? More difficult? Did Alan or people around him make a relevant change when the body of Bill was discovered? Would it work if the body of Bill was never discovered? If he had thrown Bill overboard? If he had thrown Alan overboard? Was his only goal regarding Alan that Alan should end up dead? Or did he want to achieve something besides that? To affect Alan's business? Relatives? Friends? To get back something?
GalFisk
 
Posts: 7190
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 8:03 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby Enjay » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:18 pm

Was it Juan who suffered from Alan's ruthlesness? A relative? Friend? Someone else on the boat? Is this relevant?

Was Juan's connection to Alan known? Or could it have been discovered during an investigation? Would Juan have been suspected if only Alan had been killed? So he killed Bill so people would think it wasn't him, since he had no motive to kill Bill?

Did Juan know before the cruise that Bill would be on the ship? That Alan would be?

Did Juan do something relevant in the time after the murders, but before the ship reached land and the police investigated? Is it relevant how far the ship was from land when the murders took place? Is it relevant whether the ship took its planned route after the murders, or took a quicker route to land so the police could investigate? Did Juan want to slow the ship down? To change its course?
Enjay
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby Balin » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:28 am

Did Juan want to make it look like Bill was the primary target? And since Juan had no apparent motive to kill Bill, he would not be suspected?
Is it relevant what was done with the bodies (i.e. where they were moved) after their discoveries?
Balin
 
Posts: 6143
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism

Postby SurfingPikachu » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:28 pm

Earnest

Was the killing of Bill thought for making Alan suffer more somehow? No Was it functional for the revenge J should take on A? I mean I am not asking if it facilitate J's job in killing A, but if there is a logic in J's act like: the killing of B allow somehow to show everybody which kind of person A was/justify the reason of the murder? No, exactly the opposite

Juan knew that Bill's murder would have many suspects --> so is J's logic something like: because nobody has ever investigate on Alan's businesses and bad actions, he killed B so that anyone were suspected and thus investigated? No

GalFisk

Did Juan want to achieve: getting away with murder? Yes! Getting someone specific suspected for murder? No Before he killed Bill, would it be impossible for him to kill Alan? No More difficult? No Did Alan or people around him make a relevant change when the body of Bill was discovered? No Would it work if the body of Bill was never discovered? No If he had thrown Bill overboard? Would complicate things If he had thrown Alan overboard? Risky Was his only goal regarding Alan that Alan should end up dead? Or did he want to achieve something besides that? This To affect Alan's business? Relatives? Friends? To get back something? None of these

Enjay

Was it Juan who suffered from Alan's ruthlesness? A relative? Friend? Any of these Someone else on the boat? Is this relevant? No

Was Juan's connection to Alan known? No! Or could it have been discovered during an investigation? Yes! Would Juan have been suspected if only Alan had been killed? Yes! So he killed Bill so people would think it wasn't him, since he had no motive to kill Bill? Yes!

Did Juan know before the cruise that Bill would be on the ship? That Alan would be? Neither

Did Juan do something relevant in the time after the murders, but before the ship reached land and the police investigated? No Is it relevant how far the ship was from land when the murders took place? Yes Is it relevant whether the ship took its planned route after the murders, or took a quicker route to land so the police could investigate? Did Juan want to slow the ship down? To change its course? None of these

Balin

Did Juan want to make it look like Bill was the primary target? Yes! And since Juan had no apparent motive to kill Bill, he would not be suspected? Exactly! Is it relevant what was done with the bodies (i.e. where they were moved) after their discoveries? Irr



***** SPOILER *****
Juan grew up in a tight-knit community. His life was relatively simple and peaceful, until one fateful year, when a big company started crushing the local businesses. A few of the business owners, including the fathers of Juan and his sweetheart, did their research into the person spearheading these initiatives, Alan, and tried to negotiate a truce or business partnership with him, but were thrown out by security. Most of the community eventually left to seek out other means of livelihood, and Juan himself drifted for awhile until he found a job as a cleaning crew member on board a cruise ship. He never saw his sweetheart again.

But lo and behold, fate was not entirely cruel to him, for this day he recognised Alan on board the very cruise ship he worked at. He must have his revenge! By this time, Juan had worked on the cruise ship long enough to be intimately familiar with its layout, activities, and crew schedules and duties. He knew that he could kill Alan and not get directly caught red-handed, barring any major unforeseen circumstances.

But what would happen when the police arrived? They might initially find no major clues, and then turn to investigating who had the motive to kill Alan. They might research Alan's history, cross-reference it with each of the passengers' histories, and then discover Juan's grievance against him. Juan did not know how difficult such a discovery would be, or if in fact any of the other passengers had even bigger grievances, and though he was prepared to face execution to avenge everyone he loved, he would still like to avoid the risk if he could.

As he was pondering this, he observed Bill being a capital-A Asshole towards the other passengers. One minute Bill would casually mention to a couple that he had seen the man with another girl last week ("And now you're out with another hot squeeze, naughty naughty!") and the next minute turn around and bring up skeletons in the closet of another passenger.

Juan had a brainwave! He should kill Bill first! Then, the police would investigate, and find the motive obvious. They would carefully interview witnesses for everything Bill did and said, and narrow down the passengers who would have enough animosity to kill Bill. And since Alan was killed afterwards, well he must have seen or heard something about the murder, and was silenced. Or maybe he tried to blackmail the murderer. Better interview the witnesses about Alan as well, and see if any of the suspects were seen with him. The police would be so swamped with work, and none of the suspicion would even fall on Juan.

We all knew how things turned out. Everything went according to plan, and the police were left thoroughly confused with too many leads but nothing concrete. Juan eventually met another girl from his childhood days and married her. In his old age, having some fun on a forum using a handler that was a nod to his stint on the cruise ship, Juan wondered if this story would not perhaps make a good puzzle for the tiny little LTPF community that he had come to grow a little fond of.


Thanks to everyone who played, and hope you have enjoyed yourself!
SurfingPikachu
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: [SurfingPikachu] Negative Utilitarianism (* DOCKED *)

Postby Balin » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:53 pm

Always love homicide puzzles!
Balin
 
Posts: 6143
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm
Location: Connecticut, USA


Return to Solved Lateral Thinking Puzzles

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests
cron