[SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

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[SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:24 pm

Why does John, a down-to-earth and non-religious man, will himself to teleport to heaven from time to time?
Last edited by SurfingPikachu on Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby Earnest » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:24 pm

John = H/A/M? teleport = dematerialize himself? Relevant how he is teleported? Or did he teleport himself? Would any other human being like me and (hopefully) you be able to teleport like John in heaven? If so while reading? while relaxing? while working? is it possible every day? is the heaven of John the same for every human being? For a certain type of people?

heaven = place where there is God? A paradisiac place? A church? A place called heaven like a pub?

teleport to heaven = metaphoric sense? Is drug involved (hope not)? Is dreaming involved? is he conscious when he is teleported to heaven? Teleport with his mind? Like for instance he is reading a book like Dante's Heaven and he let himself teleport in heaven with Dante?

from time to time = every day? Every week? Every month? In specific periods? In specific days?

Relevant what he sees when he is teleported in heaven? Is him able to come back every time in the same way?
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:58 pm

Earnest

John = H/A/M? Yes teleport = dematerialize himself? Yes, and appear at another place Relevant how he is teleported? Irr, and he only tries, not succeeds Or did he teleport himself? Yes, he is trying and failing to do this Would any other human being like me and (hopefully) you be able to teleport like John in heaven? We could try in the same manner, and we would fail in the same manner If so while reading? while relaxing? while working? is it possible every day? We could try everyday while doing any of these

is the heaven of John the same for every human being? For a certain type of people?
heaven = place where there is God? A paradisiac place? A church? A place called heaven like a pub?
He tries to go to what he conceives of as heaven, which is a paradise with God and angels, not a normal place named "heaven". I can't say if it actually exists or if everyone would go there eventually.

teleport to heaven = metaphoric sense? Literal Is drug involved (hope not)? No Is dreaming involved? He might try when dreaming, but also when awake (and knowing he is awake) is he conscious when he is teleported to heaven? He doesn't succeed Teleport with his mind? Like for instance he is reading a book like Dante's Heaven and he let himself teleport in heaven with Dante? No

from time to time = every day? Every week? Every month? In specific periods? In specific days? Let's say averaging once every few days

Relevant what he sees when he is teleported in heaven? Is him able to come back every time in the same way? He doesn't succeed
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby Balin » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:27 pm

Does John think he is succeeding?
Is he being serious in his attempts to teleport? Sarcastic?
Is he the only person making this attempt?
Does it do it simply to pass the time?
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:38 pm

Balin

Does John think he is succeeding? In his aim, yes
Is he being serious in his attempts to teleport? Sarcastic? He is serious in trying to achieve something, which is not actually teleporting to heaven
Is he the only person making this attempt? Assume yes, though probabilistically somewhere out there someone might be doing the same thing
Does it do it simply to pass the time? No
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby Balin » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:47 pm

Is he trying to achieve something related to himself? To someone else?
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby Enjay » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:51 pm

Does John believe there is any chance of him succeeding in teleporting himself to heaven?

Is he trying to prove something? Could a religious person do this for the same reason?

Is it relevant what he does when he wills himself to teleport? Does he stop what he is doing? Concentrate hard? Shut his eyes? Does he tell anyone else that he is willing himself to teleport to heaven? Would he do this when around others? When alone? Does anything in particular trigger him to do this or does he just do it as and when he wants to?
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:13 am

Balin

Is he trying to achieve something related to himself? This To someone else? No

Enjay

Does John believe there is any chance of him succeeding in teleporting himself to heaven? No

Is he trying to prove something? No Could a religious person do this for the same reason? I think yes

Is it relevant what he does when he wills himself to teleport? Irr, except some answers might mislead Does he stop what he is doing? Yes Concentrate hard? Yes Shut his eyes? Yes Does he tell anyone else that he is willing himself to teleport to heaven? No Would he do this when around others? Yes, discreetly When alone? Yes Does anything in particular trigger him to do this This-ish or does he just do it as and when he wants to? This might work too
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:13 am

Errata: John does intend to, and sometimes succeed in, teleporting to heaven in a loose manner of speaking which I had not previously considered.
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby Earnest » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:46 am

Is him a scientist? Did he want to fail his attempt to teleport himself? Did he know that he would have fail in his attempt(s)?Did he have an engine/machine to teleport himself? Is him in a theatre? Is he doing a performance? A show? As a magician? Is him maybe a singer and the puzzle are the words of one of his successes (something like "touching the heaven" and so on...)?

Relevant how he is trying to teleport himself? I mean...no actual machine could teleport, so should we suppose that he invented one able to d it?

We could try in the same manner, and we would fail in the same manner--> so is it just a matter of concentrate and maybe repeat some words? If so, relevant which words?

Is it a yoga session? So thinking of heaven is subjective but somehow relaxing?

well...to be sure...is him part of a cartoon? Just like Dragon Ball? (Hope not but reasonable to ask when talking about teleport)
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:04 pm

Earnest

Is him a scientist? No Did he want to fail his attempt to teleport himself? He knows he will surely fail, so he does not bother to want Did he know that he would have fail in his attempt(s)? Yes Did he have an engine/machine to teleport himself? No, just *poof* disappears and *poof*
appears somewhere else
Is him in a theatre? Is he doing a performance? A show? As a magician? Is him maybe a singer and the puzzle are the words of one of his successes (something like "touching the heaven" and so on...)? No to rest

Relevant how he is trying to teleport himself? I don't think so I mean...no actual machine could teleport, so should we suppose that he invented one able to d it? He does not try to invent a teleportation device

We could try in the same manner, and we would fail in the same manner--> so is it just a matter of concentrate Yes and maybe repeat some words? For John, no, but you may prefer to If so, relevant which words? No

Is it a yoga session? No So thinking of heaven is subjective but somehow relaxing? No, but maybe slightly analogous

well...to be sure...is him part of a cartoon? Just like Dragon Ball? (Hope not but reasonable to ask when talking about teleport) No, very realistic, and I used to do this myself


***** RECAP *****
From time to time, averaging once every few days, and triggered by something, John (H/A/M), discreetly if in the presence of others, stops what he is doing, shuts his eyes, and concentrates hard, sincerely willing himself, without use of a teleportation device, to disappear and reappear in literal heaven, which is a paradise with God and angels, and not a normal place named "heaven". He is not reading a book, doing yoga, or performing for a crowd. He is not under influence, and while he might do this when dreaming, he also does this when awake and fully aware of being awake. He knows that this is impossible and that he will fail, and he does indeed fail. The previous sentence is technically true, but in a loose manner of speaking, one might consider that he knows he will, intends to, and sometimes does, succeed in teleporting to heaven, i.e., add a BIG FAT YOPE to it. (Not sure which one would be FA-inducing. Setting puzzles is hard.) All these take place in a realistic setting, and John has a specific purpose that involves himself but no one else.
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby Earnest » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:17 pm

Is this a sort of therapy? When with others, did he isolate himself while doing the provedure of teleporting?

In hardly desiring to go to paradise did he reach another aim? I mean...does he need to do something and in concentrating, thinking of heaven and shitting his eyes he have some benefit/he is facilitated to reache the aim he wants? (E.g. he need to avoid thinking of something and desiring to go to heaven he reach his aim?)
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:43 pm

Earnest

Is this a sort of therapy? No When with others, did he isolate himself while doing the provedure of teleporting? Not really, though he was discreet

In hardly desiring to go to paradise did he reach another aim? I mean...does he need to do something and in concentrating, thinking of heaven and shitting his eyes he have some benefit/he is facilitated to reache the aim he wants? (E.g. he need to avoid thinking of something Similar to this in some sense and desiring to go to heaven he reach his aim?) But overall, it was not "to remove negative thoughts"
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby Earnest » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:10 pm

Did he perform this "ritual" in specific situations? When he see something/someone in particular? Relevant which feeling is dominant when he does it? Something like shame? Shyness? Hope?

Let's focus on the case when he is alone and he does this...
Can he do that without shutting his eyes? Can he do that while thinking of teleporting himself in other place than heaven? E.g. on a beach? I mean...is the act of thinking of teleporting himself the relevant part? Something like this allow him to focus more? To concentrate? To gain in rapidity? Does he want to avoid something?
Does it work better with a pair of headphones?
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:29 pm

Earnest

Did he perform this "ritual" in specific situations? Yes When he see something/someone in particular? No Relevant which feeling is dominant when he does it? Yes Something like shame? Shyness? Hope? None of these

Let's focus on the case when he is alone and he does this...
Can he do that without shutting his eyes? Yes, just preference Can he do that while thinking of teleporting himself in other place than heaven? E.g. on a beach? Yes, just preference I mean...is the act of thinking of teleporting himself the relevant part? Yes, but it would be somewhere pleasant Something like this allow him to focus more? No To concentrate?No To gain in rapidity? What's this? Does he want to avoid something? Yes
Does it work better with a pair of headphones? I don't think so, but probably irr
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby Earnest » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:39 pm

Ok feeling...anger? does he want to avoid impulsive reactions?
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:43 pm

Earnest

Ok feeling...anger? does he want to avoid impulsive reactions? No, wrong track
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby peter365 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:52 pm

Is John's occupation relevant? Is he procrastinating ? Does he have some unpleasant task to carry out? Will he perform a relevant action directly after doing this?
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:55 pm

peter365

Is John's occupation relevant? No Is he procrastinating ? No Does he have some unpleasant task to carry out? Yes Will he perform a relevant action directly after doing this? No
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby Earnest » Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:00 pm

Did he perform this "ritual" in specific situations? Yes
Does he want to avoid something? Yes --> so...he want to avoid to be embarrassed when in front of others? Does it work if he just think of walking or flying to another place? Does it work if he speak/move while thinking of being teleported? Is it a technique for distracting him somehow? Does he do it maybe while traveling? While eating? while playing? electronic relevant? while listening to others?while reading? while at the doctor? in front of a mirror? in bathroom?

he doesn't succeed physically to go to heaven...but does he succeed mentally? If so, relevant what he thinks after being in heaven? Does he want to imagine a certain situation? Does he want to figure out something?
Is something disgusting involved?
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:17 pm

Earnest

Did he perform this "ritual" in specific situations? Yes
Does he want to avoid something? Yes --> so...he want to avoid to be embarrassed when in front of others?
Also: Does he have some unpleasant task to carry out? Yes
More of fear and stress than embarassment. But he "avoids" it not in the way you might be thinking of.


Does it work if he just think of walking or flying to another place? Walking is rather slow; flying would be better, but not as fast as teleporting Does it work if he speak/move while thinking of being teleported? It may be hard to concentrate while speaking or moving

Is it a technique for distracting him somehow? Only in an abstract sense Does he do it maybe while traveling? While eating? while playing? No, because all these are pleasant activities electronic relevant? while listening to others?while reading? while at the doctor? in front of a mirror? in bathroom? Not unless these are done in very unpleasant situations

he doesn't succeed physically to go to heaven...but does he succeed mentally? Sometimes in a sense, but not the reading Dante's Heaven sense If so, relevant what he thinks after being in heaven? No Does he want to imagine a certain situation? Only in an abstract sense Does he want to figure out something? No Is something disgusting involved? No


***** RECAP *****
From time to time, averaging once every few days, during unpleasant situations that cause fear or stress, John (H/A/M), discreetly if in the presence of others, stops what he is doing and shuts his eyes in order to concentrate hard, sincerely willing himself, without use of a teleportation device, to teleport, or perhaps fly or otherwise quickly go, to a pleasant place such as a beach or literal heaven, which is a paradise with God and angels, and not a normal place named "heaven". He is not reading a book, doing yoga, doing therapy, or performing for a crowd. He is not under influence, and while he might do this when dreaming, he also does this when awake and fully aware of being awake. He knows that this is impossible and that he will fail, and he does indeed fail. The previous sentence is technically true, but in a loose manner of speaking, one might consider that he knows he will, intends to, and sometimes does, succeed in teleporting to heaven, i.e., add a BIG FAT YOPE to it. (Not sure which one would be FA-inducing. Setting puzzles is hard.) All these take place in a realistic setting. John has a specific purpose that involves himself but no one else, and which is, in a certain vague sense, to avoid unpleasant situations.

Why would John keep on doing this, knowing full well that he would (yopely) fail and (yopely) still be in the unpleasant situations anyway?

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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby Enjay » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:52 pm

Should we find out more specifics of what the unpleasant situations are or is it enough to know he does it in stressful.scary situations?

Does he do this to calm himself down? To prevent a particular reaction like a panic attack? Does it make him look calmer to others?
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:58 pm

Enjay

Should we find out more specifics of what the unpleasant situations are or is it enough to know he does it in stressful.scary situations? No need for more details

Does he do this to calm himself down? To prevent a particular reaction like a panic attack? Does it make him look calmer to others? No to all
This puzzle is similar to the "Why did Juan kill Bill?" puzzle in that the protagonist does something apparently useless for an actually reasonable but non-obvious purpose.
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby Earnest » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:41 am

apparently useless for an actually reasonable purpose-->reasonable = it would be reasonable for every human in such a situation of fear and stress? or = it would be reasonable for him having some relevant characteristic (physical or mental, e.g. asthma, sweating relevant?)? Relevant John's past?

is the motivation of doing it the same when he is alone and when he is with others?
Is the more important part for the puzzle to be solved that "he stops what he is doing and shuts his eyes in order to concentrate hard"? Or that he "imagines to be quickly teleported to heaven"? While doing something unpleasant, does he imagine to be teleported to heaven once or more than once? Relevant?

Are the physical reactions to fear and stress important? rapid heartbeat? sweated hands? trembling? Unpleasant memories? breathlessness? Screaming?

which is, in a certain vague sense, to avoid unpleasant situations--> so is his main aim to avoid unpleasant situations? If so, to avoid the specific unpleasant situation in which he finds himself or to avoid a possible unpleasant situation that could happen if he didn't do that? I mean...because he does this also when alone (and with alone I mean also maybe on the sofa of his house watching an horror movie alone) I suppose that this is not for avoiding to be embarrassed or for hiding something right?

Can it be considered a clever strategy to avoid something (in contrast with something necessary to avoid something and without which, that something cannot be avoided)? Avoid to react improperly? Is it to convince himself of something? Is it to "lose" time? The whole action takes time, right? So if he chooses teleporting he wants maybe the action of finding himself in heaven to be quick?

J does it knowing that he would fail in teleporting to heaven and that he will found in the unpleasant situation when opening his eyes again, right? So, is the solution something like: when opening his eyes, after having thought about being teleported to heaven, he is still in the unpleasant situation, BUT NOW,...I mean is there something different between: before concentrating and teleporting and after? Is something changed in J?
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:04 pm

Earnest

Slow day in the LTPF forums huh...

apparently useless for an actually reasonable purpose-->reasonable = it would be reasonable for every human in such a situation of fear and stress? or = it would be reasonable for him having some relevant characteristic (physical or mental, e.g. asthma, sweating relevant?)?
John is trying to solve a certain problem by doing this apparently useless action in situations of fear and stress.
For other humans in the same situations of fear and stress, but not having or trying to solve this certain problem, this action may not be reasonable.
For other humans that do have this certain problem, John's approach may or may not work for them. It would be interesting to know if you guys have this problem, and if such an approach would work for you, and if not, why.
Whether or not John having this problem is due to having some relevant characteristic is quite a vague question. I would say that most people have this problem to various extents (so it's quite universal), but few people would solve it in the way John does (so John's approach is quite unique).


Relevant John's past? No

is the motivation of doing it the same when he is alone and when he is with others? Yes
Is the more important part for the puzzle to be solved that "he stops what he is doing and shuts his eyes in order to concentrate hard"? No Or that he "imagines to be quickly teleported to heaven"? This-ish. The thing to be solved is why John would do this unusual action, not the specifics of how exactly he does it. While doing something unpleasant, does he imagine to be teleported to heaven once or more than once? Once is enough, but a few times wouldn't hurt. Relevant? Not really

Are the physical reactions to fear and stress important? rapid heartbeat? sweated hands? trembling? Unpleasant memories? breathlessness? Screaming? Not important, except that John, like other humans, want to avoid fear and stress

which is, in a certain vague sense, to avoid unpleasant situations--> so is his main aim to avoid unpleasant situations? Not in general, just that the answer to this puzzle can be classified as a type of "avoiding unpleasant situations" (which isn't saying much) If so, to avoid the specific unpleasant situation in which he finds himself No or to avoid a possible unpleasant situation that could happen if he didn't do that? Yes-ish, something like this I mean...because he does this also when alone (and with alone I mean also maybe on the sofa of his house watching an horror movie alone) Eh, horror movies are easily avoided by just not watching them? I suppose that this is not for avoiding to be embarrassed or for hiding something right? It is not

Can it be considered a clever strategy to avoid something Yes, as discussed above (in contrast with something necessary to avoid something and without which, that something cannot be avoided)? Avoid to react improperly? Yes-ish in a vague sense Is it to convince himself of something? Yes-ish in a vague sense Is it to "lose" time? No The whole action takes time, right? Maybe one second? So if he chooses teleporting he wants maybe the action of finding himself in heaven to be quick? He wants to escape the bad situation, in some sense, and escapes need to be quick. If he could have just walked away, then the bad situation wouldn't be all that bad. Hence horror movies aren't a good example of when John would take this action, since he could just avoid them by walking away from them (or switching the channel, or just not watching them).

J does it knowing that he would fail in teleporting to heaven and that he will found in the unpleasant situation when opening his eyes again, right? Yes, that's what makes this puzzling So, is the solution something like: when opening his eyes, after having thought about being teleported to heaven, he is still in the unpleasant situation, BUT NOW,...I mean is there something different between: before concentrating and teleporting and after? Is something changed in J? Yes, good analysis! There is indeed something changed, otherwise John's action would be really useless, as opposed to just apparently useless.
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby Earnest » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:09 pm

John is trying to solve a certain problem --> So the whole scene is mostly applicable in "unavoidable situations" which provoke fear, right? Like he is afraid of flying but he needs to take a plane? Can we assume this as "benchmark" situation? So is something like: he is on the plane he is afraid and the travel lasts 2 hours...the questions are:

1) does he perform the ritual "at the height of his fear" or is it irrelevant when he does it?

2) supposing that he does the ritual in the middle of the travel, can we say that: he does the one-second ritual shutting his eyes and so on; then when opening his eyes after a second...a) he continues to be afraid of flying in general but NOT of flying on that plane? If so, does the ritual lead him not to be afraid indirectly or directly?; b) he continues to be afraid of flying AND to be afraid as before on that plane?; c) he is no more afraid of flying?

3) supposing that b) is the right one: does he want to avoid fear? Can we consider "fear" as the main problem J wants to solve? If so, does he know that he won't solve it with the ritual? I mean...if he is in panic for the situation and he thinks of being teleported to have, would he be still in panic with all consequences that panic brings?

4) is the situation described one of those relevant for the puzzle or not?

There is indeed something changed--> so something visibly changed? or something inside J? is some item relevant? does he relevantly do something (consciously or unconsciously) while being concentrated a part from thinking of being teleported to heaven? Is it relevant whether he does it standing or sitting? Is it relevant what happens or what doesn't happen after he does the ritual?

Had he not done the ritual in the specific situation, would he have fainted? Is it relevant the fact that for a second he forgets what is surrounding himself? He is blind? He concentrates on something else?

For other humans in the same situations of fear and stress, but not having or trying to solve this certain problem, this action may not be reasonable--> so does he suffer from a disease? does he have a particular reaction when being afraid/stressed/under pressure? Something that could be avoided in just a second? By simply thinking of being teleported to heaven? Is it something to redeem himself? To relax himself for a second?
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:42 am

Earnest

Please be reminded that there is a special context in which John can be loosely said to succeed in "teleporting to heaven", and thus many of the below questions are not relevant. I am answering the below questions for the normal context. I think it would be more productive to explore the special context.

John is trying to solve a certain problem --> So the whole scene is mostly applicable in "unavoidable situations" which provoke fear, right? Yes Like he is afraid of flying but he needs to take a plane? Yes, this can work Can we assume this as "benchmark" situation? Yes So is something like: he is on the plane he is afraid and the travel lasts 2 hours...the questions are:

1) does he perform the ritual "at the height of his fear" or is it irrelevant when he does it?
He would do it at the start, and if it lasts as long as 2 hours, he might do it again a few more times. If you think about it, it is only possible to pinpoint the "height of the fear" after and not during the experience, in the same way that it is only possible to pinpoint the "peak of a bull market" in hindsight. (If this explanation doesn't make sense to you, just ignore it, it is mostly irrelevant.)

2) supposing that he does the ritual in the middle of the travel, can we say that: he does the one-second ritual shutting his eyes and so on; then when opening his eyes after a second...a) he continues to be afraid of flying in general but NOT of flying on that plane? If so, does the ritual lead him not to be afraid indirectly or directly?; b) he continues to be afraid of flying AND to be afraid as before on that plane?; This c) he is no more afraid of flying?
b) continues to be afraid of flying including on this plane

3) supposing that b) is the right one: does he want to avoid fear? Yes, as most humans do Can we consider "fear" as the main problem J wants to solve? Yes, in some sense If so, does he know that he won't solve it with the ritual? He knows he won't solve the current situation, but... I mean...if he is in panic for the situation and he thinks of being teleported to have, would he be still in panic with all consequences that panic brings? Yes, although if John was truly "panicking" instead of just being "fearful", he might not have the presence of mind to think about teleporting to heaven. But he would be indeed fearful before and after, yes.

4) is the situation described one of those relevant for the puzzle or not?

There is indeed something changed--> so something visibly changed? Not visibly or something inside J? Yes is some item relevant? No does he relevantly do something (consciously or unconsciously) while being concentrated a part from thinking of being teleported to heaven? He caused this change, does that count as "do something"? There is nothing else he did. Is it relevant whether he does it standing or sitting? No Is it relevant what happens or what doesn't happen after he does the ritual? Nothing else happens except for this change

Had he not done the ritual in the specific situation, would he have fainted? No Is it relevant the fact that for a second he forgets what is surrounding himself? Yes-ish He is blind? No He concentrates on something else? Yes

For other humans in the same situations of fear and stress, but not having or trying to solve this certain problem, this action may not be reasonable--> so does he suffer from a disease? No
I was just trying to point out that when you asked "it would be reasonable for every human in such a situation of fear and stress?",
we have established that it would be reasonable to do it in situations of fear and stress for the purpose of solving the problem, so it is misleading to answer whether it is also reasonable for other humans to do it in situations of fear and stress by clarifying that it depends on whether they have the same problem.


does he have a particular reaction when being afraid/stressed/under pressure? Something that could be avoided in just a second? By simply thinking of being teleported to heaven? Is it something to redeem himself? To relax himself for a second? No to all


***** RECAP *****
From time to time, averaging once every few days, during unavoidable and unpleasant situations that cause fear or stress, the specifics of which are not important, John (H/A/M), discreetly if in the presence of others, stops what he is doing and shuts his eyes in order to concentrate hard, sincerely willing himself, without use of a teleportation device, to teleport, or perhaps fly or otherwise quickly go, to a pleasant place such as a beach or literal heaven, which is a paradise with God and angels, and not a normal place named "heaven".

He is not reading a book, doing yoga, doing therapy, or performing for a crowd. He is not under influence, and while he might do this when dreaming, he also does this when awake and fully aware of being awake.

Normal context: He knows that this is impossible and that he will fail, and he does indeed fail. He continues to face the unpleasant situation with everything unchanged except for an internal state in him.
Special context which sometimes happens: He thinks he will succeed and he does indeed succeed in a manner of speaking.
All these take place in a realistic setting. John is trying to solve a certain problem related to avoidance of fear or stress, which most people experience to various extents, but in a unique approach which few people would take.
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby Earnest » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:25 pm

If this explanation doesn't make sense to you...yes it does but I thought of something signalizing to J that he reached the limit somehow :)

so...is it to prevent fear or stress? or is it more useful when fear or stress already occurred?

He knows he won't solve the current situation, but... --> but he would avoid something else right? Something else that would occur as a consequence of fear or stress and it is not physical and occurs in specific situations (which is not the one described in the example above of the plane) right? So...does he want to avoid some difficulty that occur in trying to avoid fear and stress with other "rituals"?

Normal context: does it motivate him? Is it something to be in peace with himself?

Special context which sometimes happens--> sometimes = depending on certain external circumstances or on something internal to J?
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:03 pm

Earnest

If this explanation doesn't make sense to you...yes it does but I thought of something signalizing to J that he reached the limit somehow :)

so...is it to prevent fear or stress? Both, but less of this or is it more useful when fear or stress already occurred? Both, but more of this

He knows he won't solve the current situation, but... --> but he would avoid something else right? Yes Something else that would occur Yes as a consequence of fear or stress Not necessarily as a consequence and it is not physical and occurs in specific situations (which is not the one described in the example above of the plane) right? Yes So...does he want to avoid some difficulty that occur in trying to avoid fear and stress with other "rituals"? Technically yes to the weird wording of your question?

Normal context: does it motivate him? Is it something to be in peace with himself? No to all

Special context which sometimes happens--> sometimes = depending on certain external circumstances or on something internal to J? Internal
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby Earnest » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:31 pm

So is him unable to avoid thinking to sonething when fear and stress occur? Does he continuously repeat sometjing in his mind and he want to avoid it?

Special context which sometimes happens--> depending on something internal which happens during the moment of fear and stress? Before? After?

Is the teleporting to heaven necessary to make him understand something? Is it necessary to make him understand that he is still able to reflect? That he is still able not to lose control because he is capable of thinking to be telepirted?
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:53 pm

Earnest

So is him unable to avoid thinking to sonething when fear and stress occur? Does he continuously repeat sometjing in his mind and he want to avoid it? Technically yes to both, but I think you're OTWT, so this answer is FA-inducing.

Special context which sometimes happens--> depending on something internal which happens during the moment of fear and stress? Before? After? I would say technically before due to the biochemistry (or is it physics?)

Is the teleporting to heaven necessary to make him understand something? No Is it necessary to make him understand that he is still able to reflect? Quite the opposite! :lol: That he is still able not to lose control because he is capable of thinking to be telepirted? Seriously the opposite of this, so if you turn around 180 degs, you'll be OTRT!
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby Earnest » Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:21 pm

As usual to me haahahahahahah....

So to make him understand that he is having real fear/stress? Is it like an alarm? Just like to make him understand that he passed the breaking point? That he is loosing control?
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:49 pm

Earnest

So to make him understand that he is having real fear/stress? Is it like an alarm? Just like to make him understand that he passed the breaking point? That he is loosing control?

It is the opposite of making him understand something. What is the opposite of a type of action that is done with thought and reflection and understanding? Where this type of action is commonly done in a special context which you have already mentioned, and in which one could "succeed" in teleporting to heaven?
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby Earnest » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:07 pm

What is the opposite of a type of action that is done with thought and reflection and understanding?--->  An action done instinctively?

Where this type of action is commonly done in a special context which you have already mentioned, and in which one could "succeed" in teleporting to heaven? Well I suppose in someone's mind...? When someone thinks to die?

So he thinks of being teleported instinctively? To avoid unsderstanding something? Of having fear? To avoid realising something?

Is it something like praying? But he doesn't want to prey? I mean this could just work in a fearful situation...

Is he acting instinctively? Is the effort of thinking of being teleported relevant? If so can we consider it as instinctively? In open is eyes does he convince himself of something? Does he resign to do something?

Does it have a benefical effect immediately for its purpose to avoid something? Does it confound him more at the moment? Does it provoke more fear and stress so that he reach the peak of fear/stress more rapidly?

Is it (teleporting and so on) symbol of fear? Like the fact that he succeed is something that could happen just when he is stressed and he act instinctively?
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:17 pm

Earnest

What is the opposite of a type of action that is done with thought and reflection and understanding?---> An action done instinctively? Yes, and the way to make an uninstinctive action instinctive is?

Where this type of action is commonly done in a special context which you have already mentioned, and in which one could "succeed" in teleporting to heaven? Well I suppose in someone's mind...? Yes, but something more specifically, which you asked in your first post, and which I gave a long-ish answer to. (I probably should have put tons of exclamation marks though!!!) When someone thinks to die?

So he thinks of being teleported instinctively? He is working towards it. To avoid unsderstanding something? Of having fear? To avoid realising something? So that in a certain situation when he has no clarity of thought and only instinct to rely on...

Is it something like praying? But he doesn't want to prey? I mean this could just work in a fearful situation... No

Is he acting instinctively? In a certain situation... Is the effort of thinking of being teleported relevant? No If so can we consider it as instinctively? He is working towards it. In open is eyes does he convince himself of something? Does he resign to do something? I don't know what these are asking.

Does it have a benefical effect immediately for its purpose to avoid something? Yes, if I'm understanding correctly. Does it confound him more at the moment? Does it provoke more fear and stress so that he reach the peak of fear/stress more rapidly? No to these

Is it (teleporting and so on) symbol of fear? Like the fact that he succeed is something that could happen just when he is stressed and he act instinctively? Yes, if I'm understanding correctly.
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby Earnest » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:35 pm

is that like a tic? a nervous contraction? (or...does he do this to avoid a tic?)
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby biograd » Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:52 pm

I see that dreaming was mentioned, and you didn't say it was irrelevant, just that he does it also when awake. But are the times when he's dreaming the relevant times, and the times when he's awake are practice for that? Is he trying to test whether he's dreaming, while within a dream? or otherwise test whether he is experiencing normal reality? Could any normally impossible action take the place of "teleporting to heaven" (such as being able to fly)?

If not this, is he attempting to develop his mental visualization ability?
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:25 am

Earnest

is that like a tic? a nervous contraction? (or...does he do this to avoid a tic?)
Not quite a tic, but it is a habit

biograd

I see that dreaming was mentioned, and you didn't say it was irrelevant, just that he does it also when awake. But are the times when he's dreaming the relevant times, and the times when he's awake are practice for that? Both are "relevant", but yes! When awake he's "practising" for when he's dreaming Is he trying to test whether he's dreaming, while within a dream? or otherwise test whether he is experiencing normal reality?
He's not "directly" testing for dreaming, as:
- When he's awake, he's sure that he's awake, so he would not feel the need for a test
- He finds that when he's dreaming, he does not have the presence of mind to ask if he's dreaming, and thus perform a test to find out

Could any normally impossible action take the place of "teleporting to heaven" (such as being able to fly)?
Impossibility is a relevant factor, but as previously discussed, so is escape/avoidance

If not this, is he attempting to develop his mental visualization ability? No-ish

Very close to the answer, someone just needs to connect the dots!
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby biograd » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:21 pm

You say he doesn't have the presence of mind to test if he is dreaming, when he in fact IS dreaming, but is he trying to develop that presence of mind through force of habit?
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:26 pm

biograd

You say he doesn't have the presence of mind to test if he is dreaming, when he in fact IS dreaming, but is he trying to develop that presence of mind through force of habit?
He is trying to develop the ability to do something while dreaming through force of habit, but that something isn't the presence of mind to test if he is dreaming
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby GalFisk » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:53 pm

Is he trying to induce lucid dreaming? Is he making a habit of doing this thing when awake, in the hope that he will eventually do the same thing in a dream? And when doing it in a dream gives a different result than doing it in real life, he will know it's a dream? Or is he trying to have a specific dream? To have a dream he has had before?
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby Earnest » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:19 pm

are nightmares involved? Is he trying just to sleep without stress and fear making "unconscious" and automatic the action of thinking of being teleported whenever he finds himself in stressful and fearful situations like in nightmares? (I mean, something like whenever he has a nightmare, authomatically he thinks of being teleported to heaven)
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent

Postby SurfingPikachu » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:53 am

GalFisk

Is he trying to induce lucid dreaming? No Is he making a habit of doing this thing when awake, in the hope that he will eventually do the same thing in a dream? Yes! And when doing it in a dream gives a different result than doing it in real life, he will know it's a dream? No Or is he trying to have a specific dream? Yes-ish To have a dream he has had before? Yes-ish

Earnest

are nightmares involved? Yes! Is he trying just to sleep without stress and fear making "unconscious" and automatic the action of thinking of being teleported whenever he finds himself in stressful and fearful situations like in nightmares? (I mean, something like whenever he has a nightmare, authomatically he thinks of being teleported to heaven) Yes!!! That is exactly it!


***** SPOILER *****
John has nightmares frequently. Sometimes he dreams of getting chased by T-rexes or aliens, sometimes he dreams of being trapped in lifts with bodies lowered through the hatch chanting "how now brown cow", and sometimes he just dreams he is at his workplace getting shouted at by bosses and colleagues while racing against impossible deadlines.

John would like a way to deal with these nightmares. At first, he tries the standard tests of whether he is dreaming. He tries to pinch himself, or read a watch, but he finds that when dreaming, he does not have the clarity of thought to find the results abnormal and thus conclude that he is dreaming. Either way, so what if he does know that it is a dream?

Another thing he tries is to just let the T-rex or alien catch him. This works pretty well in waking him up, but it doesn't work for nightmares like being at the workplace where there is no threat of death. Also, John is uncomfortable with getting into the habit of instinctively suiciding at the first sign of danger, wondering if that would ever come back to bite him in real life.

Finally, John hits upon a clever idea. He would train himself to instinctively teleport away from threatening situations. When he is awake, that would of course not work, both physically, and because he has the clarity of thought to know that he is awake and that this is impossible. But when asleep, robbed of this clarity of thought, he would truly believe he is able to teleport.

Since teleporting away is not instinctual to him though, he has to practice it in real life to make it a habit, so that this habit can kick in during his nightmares. Thus, whenever John finds himself in a threatening situation when awake, he tries his best to will himself to teleport to heaven, and eventually, he does this habitually in nightmares as well, and is able to transform them into pleasant dreams.


Thanks to everyone who played, especially to Earnest for sticking with the puzzle for so long and finally solving it, and to biograd who provided a crucial breakthrough. Hope you have enjoyed yourself!
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Re: [SurfingPikachu] Rapturous Intent (*ASCENDED*)

Postby Earnest » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:18 am

Very clever idea...I think I'll also try it...thanks Sp
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