[Grouffe] Vertigo

[Grouffe]

The height level decreases, but at some point, the danger will increase.

[peter365]

Hi Grouffe and a big welcome to the forum.

Is this danger to life and limb? At some point.... does this mean at a point where whatever it is reaches a certain height? or is it a fixed point in time?

Any relevant vehicles? or anything else mechanised? Does gravity alter the height or some manmade force?

Is this a real life scenario or something from your imagination? or someone else's for that matter?

[Grouffe]

Is this danger to life and limb? Yes
At some point.... does this mean at a point where whatever it is reaches a certain height? or is it a fixed point in time? Both


Any relevant vehicles? or anything else mechanised? Does gravity alter the height or some manmade force? No to these

Is this a real life scenario or something from your imagination? or someone else's for that matter? Real life

[biograd]

Is the danger of falling? If so, falling from the thing whose height is decreasing? of having something ELSE fall ON you from above? of not being able to breathe because of altitude? or something else not directly related to the height?

Is in fact a physical thing whose height is decreasing? or is it something more abstract (like, for example, an event that takes place in locations whose altitude is lower each time)?

[Grouffe]

Is the danger of falling? Yes If so, falling from the thing whose height is decreasing? No - good question of having something ELSE fall ON you from above? Nope of not being able to breathe because of altitude? Nopeor something else not directly related to the height Nope

Is in fact a physical thing whose height is decreasing? Yesor is it something more abstract (like, for example, an event that takes place in locations whose altitude is lower each time)? So no

[Acridian9]

"Height" as in distance from something to the ground?
Something flying relevant?

[GalFisk]

As the height level decreases, does the height of anything else increase? Is an elevator relevant? A counterweight? Does tension, pressure or some other buildup of stored energy increase? Does speed increase? Is wind relevant? Relative wind?

[Grouffe]

"Height" as in distance from something to the ground? Yope, noish
Something flying relevant? No

As the height level decreases, does the height of anything else increase? Is an elevator relevant? A counterweight? Does tension, pressure or some other buildup of stored energy increase? Does speed increase? Is wind relevant? Relative wind? No to all these

[Balin]

Is the object whose height increases attached to the ground? Does it regularly move up and down? Can it be different heights?

[Grouffe]

Is the object whose height increases attached to the ground? FA. See puzzle text Does it regularly move up and down? No upward movement normally involved. But downward movement can temporarily be halted or even for a period increase. But in the long run, the height decreases. Can it be different heights? Please rephrase

[GalFisk]

Is skydiving relevant? Jumping? Falling? Diving? A crane? Is the danger from an action performed by a human? From doing something too early?

[Grouffe]

Is skydiving relevant? Jumping? Falling? This is relevant, not the other activities Diving? A crane? Is the danger from an action performed by a human? No From doing something too early? No

[GalFisk]

Falling over? Falling down? Falling object(s)? Animal(s)? Human(s)? Liquid? Gas? Orbiting relevant? Orbital decay?

[Grouffe]

Falling over? Falling down? Yes, no to the others Falling object(s)? Animal(s)? Human(s)? Yes, humans Liquid? Gas? Orbiting relevant? Orbital decay?

[WiZ]

Does 'height' refer to the height of a person?

[Grouffe]

Does 'height' refer to the height of a person?No

[GalFisk]

Is something bein lowered? torn down? Flattened? Is the height decrease a natural phenomenon? A manmade phenomenon? Erosion relevant? Clouds? Weather? Demolition? Stunts? Sports? Extreme sports?

[Grouffe]

Is something being lowered? No torn down? No Flattened? Noish Is the height decrease a natural phenomenon? Yes A manmade phenomenon? No Erosion relevant? Yes Clouds? No Weather? Yesish Demolition? No Stunts? No Sports? Yope, could lead to F/A Extreme sports? No

[GalFisk]

Erosion from: wind? Rain? Ice? Glacier? River? Waves? Extreme weather? Animals? Humans? Volcanic activity? Seisimologic activity? Such as land subsiding? Acid rain? Heat? Sunshine? Sand? Is the thing being eroded natural? Manmade?

[Grouffe]

Erosion from: wind? Rain? Probably contributes Ice? Glacier? River? Waves? Extreme weather? Animals? Humans? Volcanic activity? Seisimologic activity? Such as land subsiding? Acid rain? Heat? Mostly this. The other listed factors have none or only minor impact Sunshine? Sand? Is the thing being eroded natural? Yes Manmade? No

[Acridian9]

Are we talking about snow? ice? water in a lake? sea level?

[Grouffe]

Are we talking about snow? ice? water in a lake? sea level? Snow and ice, yes. No to the others.

[GalFisk]

Skiing relevant? Ice skating? Kicksledding? Walking on snowy/icy surfaces? Is sanding relevant? Plowing? Sniw melting during the day and freezing into slippery ice during the night? Roads relevant? Vehicles?

[Grouffe]

Skiing relevant? Ice skating? Kicksledding? Walking on snowy/icy surfaces? Is sanding relevant? Plowing? Snow melting during the day and freezing into slippery ice during the night? Roads relevant? Vehicles? No to all

[Balin]

Is the snow/ice on a mountain? On flat land?
Is snowmaking at all relevant?

[Grouffe]

Is the snow/ice on a mountain? On flat land? Yes, on a mountain. Not on flat land
Is snowmaking at all relevant? What do you mean with "snowmaking"? If this is what you ask: the snow stems from natural processes, not any manmade snow.

[Acridian9]

One particular mountain relevant? mountains in a particular region/nation/continent? All mountains?

[GalFisk]

Is it snow anywhere on the mountain? Snow in a partiular place? Are the humans in danger of falling: on top of the snow? Inside it? Near it? Have they built something out of it?

[Grouffe]

Acridian9:
One particular mountain relevant? Yes! mountains in a particular region/nation/continent? The mountain region features a presence of snow and ice, obviously. You might try to find the particular location of this mountain of course All mountains? So no

GalFisk:
Is it snow anywhere on the mountain? Do you mean "everywhere"? Please rephrase if you want to follow up Snow in a particular place? Yes Are the humans in danger of falling: on top of the snow? No Inside it? No Near it? Yope Have they built something out of it? No

[Acridian9]

is the mountain located in: North America? South America? Africa? Europe? Asia? Antarctica? (relevant?)
An avalanche relevant?

[Grouffe]

Is the mountain located in: North America? South America? Africa? Europe? This Asia? Antarctica? (relevant?) Not really, but since it is a real case,
it may be nice to know the whole story of course
An avalanche relevant? No

[GalFisk]

Do the humans who are at risk: touch the snow? See it? Walk on it? Modify it? Live on it? Near it? Is ice relevant? Liquid water? Air moisture? Condensation? Slipperiness? Vegetation? Permafrost? Landslides? Avalanches? Snowfall (apart from putting the snow there)?

[Grouffe]

Do the humans who are at risk: touch the snow? No See it? Probably Walk on it? No Modify it? No Live on it? No Near it? No Is ice relevant? Yope Liquid water? No Air moisture? No Condensation? No Slipperiness? Noish Vegetation? No Permafrost? No Landslides? No Avalanches? No Snowfall (apart from putting the snow there)? No

[Grouffe]

To avoid this puzzle to go stale, I'll offer a recap:

************* RECAP *************

The level of ice and snow on a European mountain is decreasing. This enhances the risk for humans of falling from heights, and might cause death or severe injuries. However, it is not falling from the decreasing ice and snow that causes this increased danger.

[Acridian9]

Is the mountain located in: Italy? France? Germay? Spain? Austria? Switzerland?

Is a cableway relevant?

[Grouffe]

Is the mountain located in: Italy? France? Germay? Spain? Austria? Switzerland? None of these

Is a cableway relevant? No

[biograd]

Is skiing relevant? Some other snow-related recreational activity?

[Acridian9]

Iceland? Norwey? Sweden? Turkey? East Europe?

A city/town relevant?

[GalFisk]

Is something fastened in the snow? Held up by the snow? Is the danger in falling from something manmade? Natural? Is it in falling during a certain activity? Vehicles relevant? Transportation? Crowdedness? Tourism?

[Grouffe]

Is skiing relevant? No Some other snow-related recreational activity? No

Iceland? Norway? Sweden? This country, yes Turkey? East Europe?

A city/town relevant? No

Is something fastened in the snow? No Held up by the snow? No Is the danger in falling from something manmade? No Natural? Yes Is it in falling during a certain activity? Yes Vehicles relevant? No Transportation? No Crowdedness? No Tourism? Yes, sort of

[GalFisk]

Cool, I live in Sweden. I mostly fall out of airplanes.
If you hadn't no-ed extreme sports, I'd have given you this WAG: less snow means spring is coming, which means skydiving season, which is a sport with a non-zero risk of serious injuries and death.

Certain activity: sports? Games? Being a sports spectator? Hiking? Just being outside? Running? Performing a typical winter activity? A typical non-winter activity? Sunshine relevant, except that it melts snow? Is a particular result of snow melting relevant? If so: ice forming during nights? Water running? Snow falling? Snow looking dirtier because the dirt doesn't melt but concentrate? Nights being darker because the ground is no longer white? Things burined in the snow returning?
If a human falls, did that human likely: trip? Slip? Walk on uneven ground? Not look where they were going? Look, but unable to see the danger? Walk on something that moves? Something that collapses? Lose their balance? Get drunk? Get dizzy? Get seasick? Get motion sickness?

[Grouffe]

Cool, I live in Sweden. I know. I have looked up your profile. I mostly fall out of airplanes.
If you hadn't no-ed extreme sports, I'd have given you this WAG: less snow means spring is coming, which means skydiving season, which is a sport with a non-zero risk of serious injuries and death. So obviously no skydiving involved - riskfree or not...

Certain activity: sports? Games? Being a sports spectator? Hiking? This is the most relevant activity Just being outside? Running? Performing a typical winter activity? A typical non-winter activity? More of a non-winter activity than a winter activity, I think. Though both maybe are being practised. Sunshine relevant, except that it melts snow? No Is a particular result of snow melting relevant? I'd say 'No'... If so: ice forming during nights? Water running? Snow falling? Snow looking dirtier because the dirt doesn't melt but concentrate? Nights being darker because the ground is no longer white? Things burined in the snow returning? ...and definitely 'No' to the rest of these questions
If a human falls, did that human likely: trip? Yes, might definitely do that Slip? Or this Walk on uneven ground? Yesish - don't know exaxtly Not look where they were going? No Look, but unable to see the danger? No Walk on something that moves? No
Something that collapses? No Lose their balance? Yes Get drunk? No Get dizzy? Maybe Get seasick? No Get motion sickness? No

[GalFisk]

Trip over: a natural object? A manmade object? Something they brought with them? Shoelaces? Their own feet? Rocks? Roots? Garbage? Slip: in dog crap? In mud? On a banana peel? Other fruit peel? On something decomposing? On ice? Do they hike on bare ground? On snow? If the snow level was higher, would less people be hiking? Less people be hiking in a particular place? Would people wear flimsier shoes when the snow went away, increasing the danger of tripping or slipping? Would people walk in more dangerous places when the snow went away?

[Grouffe]

Trip over: a natural object? A manmade object? Something they brought with them? Shoelaces? Their own feet? Rocks? Roots? Garbage? What they are tripping over is not vital. But it would probably be mostly kinds of natural objects, like rocks, or maybe their shoelaces Slip: in dog crap? In mud? On a banana peel? Other fruit peel? On something decomposing? On ice? The same applies to slipping. But it would seldom be one of the things mentioned. Do they hike on bare ground? Yes, mostly On snow? Could be, but not so often as on bare ground If the snow level was higher, would less people be hiking? No Less people be hiking in a particular place? Yes Would people wear flimsier shoes when the snow went away, increasing the danger of tripping or slipping? No, probably not Would people walk in more dangerous places when the snow went away? YES

Good questions here. You're closing in.

[GalFisk]

Dangerous places: climbing a mountain? Walking a steep path? Is a specific dangerous place relevant? Or dangerous places in general? Does less snow mean people take to the mountains more, which is dangerous?

[Grouffe]

Dangerous places: climbing a mountain? Yes Walking a steep path? No Is a specific dangerous place relevant? Yes Or dangerous places in general? No Does less snow mean people take to the mountains more, which is dangerous? No

[GalFisk]

Is a specific mountain relevant? Kebnekaise? Some other especially tall mountain?

[Grouffe]

Is a specific mountain relevant? Yes Kebnekaise? YES! Some other especially tall mountain? So no

[GalFisk]

So the height level of snow on Kebnekaise decreases, which means more people go there, which means more people fall because mountain climbing is risky? Is the yearly decrease during summer the relevant one? The decrease compared to earlier summer because of warmer summers?

[Grouffe]

So the height level of snow on Kebnekaise decreases, which means more people go there, which means more people fall because mountain climbing is risky? No, it's not that Is the yearly decrease during summer the relevant one? No The decrease compared to earlier summer because of warmer summers? No

[GalFisk]

We're talking about the snow level on Kebnekaise, right? Are we also talking about people hiking on Kebnekaise? If so, are they hiking: wherever? To a certain place? Through a certain place? To the top? They are hiking in areas where there is no longer any snow, correct?

[Grouffe]

We're talking about the snow level on Kebnekaise, right? Right Are we also talking about people hiking on Kebnekaise? Also right If so, are they hiking: wherever? No To a certain place? Yes Through a certain place? Yes To the top? Yes They are hiking in areas where there is no longer any snow, correct? Yes

[hoodie]

When they fall, is it because something that is supporting them breaks? If not, does the accident involve some object breaking prior to the fall?

Is it because they are pushed off the mountain? Slip and fall off the mountain? Step off the mountain?

Is visibility an issue?

Is wildlife an issue?

[GalFisk]

Is a specific place on the route to the top relevant? Are different routes to the top relevant? Are different routes taken depending on the snow level? Is equipment or clothing relevant?

[Grouffe]

hoodie

When they fall, is it because something that is supporting them breaks? No If not, does the accident involve some object breaking prior to the fall? No

Is it because they are pushed off the mountain? No Slip and fall off the mountain? Yesish; at least they are in danger of slipping and falling off the mountain, though most will probably avoid it Step off the mountain? Likewise

Is visibility an issue? No

Is wildlife an issue? No

GalFisk

Is a specific place on the route to the top relevant? Yesish, but beware of possible FA. Applies also to your next two questions. Are different routes to the top relevant? Are different routes taken depending on the snow level? Is equipment or clothing relevant? Only as far as bad equipment probably enhances the risk of slipping and falling. But not essential in the solving of this puzzle.

[GalFisk]

Is there more than one route to the top? Is falling on the top itself relevant? Crowdedness relevant? Is there risk of falling because other humans are too close? Because the top is full?

[Grouffe]

Is there more than one route to the top? FA Is falling on the top itself relevant? No Crowdedness relevant? No Is there risk of falling because other humans are too close? No Because the top is full? No

[GalFisk]

Is there no route to the top? Do people reach the top in some way other than hiking? Is there no set route to the top, and people just walk wherever they can? Do they start walking form a relevant place?

[Grouffe]

Is there no route to the top? Yes, there is, but you are still making some FA Do people reach the top in some way other than hiking? Maybe, but I assume the majority will do it by hiking. And the danger issue is connected with the hiking activity. Is there no set route to the top, and people just walk wherever they can? No, the routes are more or less fixed Do they start walking from a relevant place? Noish/yope

[GalFisk]

Is the FA about the route? The top? The people? Hiking? Falling?

[Grouffe]

Is the FA about the route? Somewhat this The top? And especially this The people? Hiking? Falling?

[hoodie]

Would the accident occur while they are hiking down the mountain, rather than up?

If so, is the solution as simple as: When people are hiking down the mountain, the melted snow clears the way for them to take an alternate route than they would otherwise take, and the alternate route is very dangerous?

[Grouffe]

Would the accident occur while they are hiking down the mountain, rather than up? No, the danger would be the same (at least more or less the same) both ways

If so, is the solution as simple as: When people are hiking down the mountain, the melted snow clears the way for them to take an alternate route than they would otherwise take, and the alternate route is very dangerous? No, but you are on track of something

[GalFisk]

Do they take the same route up as they do down? Is the route relevantly marked in any way? Prepared in any way? Is there more than one top? Is the top very large? Small? Hard to reach? Hard to find?

[Grouffe]

Do they take the same route up as they do down? Yes Is the route relevantly marked in any way? Don't know Prepared in any way? Don't know, probably no Is there more than one top? YES, explore Is the top very large? Don't know Small? Don't know Hard to reach? Don't know, but probably not Hard to find? No, I don't think so

[Acridian9]

So, there are at least two tops and between them there is snow, or a glacier? And the lesser the snow/ice level the steeper is the trail from one top to another?

[Grouffe]

So, there are at least two tops yes and between them there is snow, or a glacier? No And the lesser the snow/ice level the steeper is the trail from one top to another? No, that is not the solution

[Grouffe]

Hint: read the puzzle text thoroughly

[GalFisk]

At some point = at one top? In one area?

[Grouffe]

At some point = at one top? In one area? More like a point in the timeline

[hoodie]

When the height decreases, is it like a shield being lowered, so that the hikers are now exposed to something? Wind?

[Grouffe]

When the height decreases, is it like a shield being lowered, so that the hikers are now exposed to something? Wind? No - OTWT

[Grouffe]

Re my answer earlier:

At some point = at one top? In one area? More like a point in the timeline

I should add that it is also a physical aspect to this point

[GalFisk]

Will the danger be highest when the height level is zero? Before zero? Is the danger directly related to the height level? Directly related to the number of people hiking? The time people spend hiking?

[Grouffe]

Will the danger be highest when the height level is zero? Before zero? Definitely before zero. Actually, a zero level will hardly ever be reached. Is the danger directly related to the height level? No Directly related to the number of people hiking? Noish, but explore The time people spend hiking? No

[GalFisk]

Is the danger highest when the heigh level is lowest? Is footwear relevant? Do more inexperienced people go there when the heigh level is lower? Younger people? Older?

[Grouffe]

Is the danger highest when the heigh level is lowest? No, it isn't that way it works Is footwear relevant? Not really Do more inexperienced people go there when the heigh level is lower? Younger people? Older? You're on the wrong track with your last three questions. Try to recap what you have already learned.

[Grouffe]

I'll recap a few found facts to avoid this puzzle going stale:

The snow and ice cap on the Swedish mountain Kebnekaise is receding. FYI non-Swedish players: Kebnekaise is Sweden's highest mountain.

[Acridian9]

Would the receding make the mountain no longer the highest?
Or better, would the receding make the present highest top no longer the highest point in Sweden? Would the new highest top be more difficult to reach?

[Grouffe]

Would the receding make the mountain no longer the highest? YES
Or better, would the receding make the present highest top no longer the highest point in Sweden? And YES Would the new highest top be more difficult to reach? At least more dangerous

I'll spoil in a later post

[Grouffe]

*************** SPOILER ***************

The Kebnekaise massif in Lappland, Sweden has the two highest peaks in the country. The glaciated South Peak is at present the highest, at 2 097,5 metres above sea level, while the North peak is 2 096,8 metres and free of ice. Due to climate changes, the icecap on the South peak is melting, and it is only a question of time before the North Peak will be the highest.

Since it is a popular hiking goal to reach a country's highest top, it is expected that hikers in the future will want to climb the North Peak rather than the South Peak. Even though the South Peak is glaciated, it is considered fairly safe and easy to climb it. To reach the North Peak, however, the hikers are forced to pass a very steep, icy and narrow ridge, so going there will be substantially more dangerous than today's hike to the South Peak, requiring mountaineering equipment and skills.

Good job, Acridian!

[GalFisk]

Good one!

[Grouffe]

Try it on your fellow Swedish friends, and see if they can work it out!