[JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

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[JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:48 am

Horse cavalry units in the Napoleonic Wars kept their biggest, strongest men in the center of the line. Why?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:14 am

Was this good for the center? The flanks? Did Napoleon do this? Did his opponents? Cavalry tactics relevant? Cavalry against infantry? Hit and run? Were the flanks purposefully made weaker? Did the strongest men meet the fiercest resistance? Surprise relevant? The enemy misjudging the strength of the cavalry?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby invisiblemimsy » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:54 am

Did both sides do this? Did it apply in all of the wars? Is this something that armies do generally, as good practice? Or is it peculiar to the Napoleonic Wars? Is this a tactical question? Purely or partly?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:47 pm

Was this good for the center? This. The flanks? Did Napoleon do this? Probably. Did his opponents? The British definitely, but probably others as well. Cavalry tactics relevant? Yes. Cavalry against infantry? Most likely. Hit and run? Definitely not. Were the flanks purposefully made weaker? Did the strongest men meet the fiercest resistance? Surprise relevant? The enemy misjudging the strength of the cavalry? No to the rest.

Did both sides do this? Assume yes. Did it apply in all of the wars? Throughout the "horse-and-musket" period, though unlikely post-American-Civil-War. Is this something that armies do generally, as good practice? Not anymore, but yes. Or is it peculiar to the Napoleonic Wars? Not specifically, but appears most frequently there. Is this a tactical question? Mildly. Purely or partly? Partly.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby invisiblemimsy » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:38 pm

Do we need to work out the arrangement/formation of the cavalry and infantry? Would they have a block of cavalry only and infantry only, or would a block be made up of both? Would it be a case of tiring out the opposition before moving in with fresh or comparatively fresh men? Would they try to confuse the opposition? Would it be helpful to establish what weapons were used by which soldiers?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:58 am

Do we need to work out the arrangement/formation of the cavalry and infantry? The cavalry formation is relevant. Would they have a block of cavalry only and infantry only, or would a block be made up of both? Would it be a case of tiring out the opposition before moving in with fresh or comparatively fresh men? Would they try to confuse the opposition? Would it be helpful to establish what weapons were used by which soldiers? No or irrelevant to all else.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby Admin » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:08 pm

Hi Jen,

Did this tactic make attacks more successful?

Attacks against infantry? cavalry? artillery?

Did it involve the riders dismounting?

regards

Paul
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:24 pm

Did this tactic make attacks more successful? Yes.

Attacks against infantry? cavalry? artillery? Assume cavalry; other formations would be preferred against other arms.

Did it involve the riders dismounting? No.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:23 pm

Are we right to assume thet the biggest, strongest men were the most capable fighters? Is a certain aspect of their fighting skill relevant? Any aspect of their horses? Is riding in a certain formation relevant? WAG: Did their horses run slower than those on the flanks, making the attack into a natural encircling manouver?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:30 pm

Are we right to assume that the biggest, strongest men were the most capable fighters? Irrelevant. Is a certain aspect of their fighting skill relevant? No. Any aspect of their horses? The fact that they are riding is relevant; this would probably not be an issue in an infantry unit. Is riding in a certain formation relevant? Yes. WAG: Did their horses run slower than those on the flanks, making the attack into a natural encircling manouver? No.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:13 pm

Is it more relevant that they are big? That they are strong? Is the center leading the flanks? Trailing? Abreast? Is a specific maneuver relevant? If so: charging? Defending? Flanking? Encircling? Retreating?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:11 am

Is it more relevant that they are big? That they are strong? This. Is the center leading the flanks? Trailing? Abreast? This. Is a specific maneuver relevant? Yes. If so: charging? This. Defending? Flanking? Encircling? Retreating?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby Earnest » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:45 am

Are the strongest also heavier and then slower? Is it something like to make the enemy feel overconfident?
Is it thought to give an advantage to the strong men or to their horses? Or to both? Was it usual to do so or usually stronger men were put on the first line of the cavalery? Was it to "exploit" the strenght of the strong men in the combat? I mean...also the weaker were able to shot from a certain distance but they are in disadvantage when there will be the combat no?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:02 am

Relevant what resistance the center will meet? Enemy tactics relevant? If so: charging? Retreating? Standing one's ground? Flanking? Reinforcements? Do the strongest men relevantly use their strength for something? If so: riding? Fighting? Controlling a scared or hurt horse? Moving a hurt or dead horse? Moving something else? Continue fighting without a horse?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:14 pm

Are the strongest also heavier and then slower? Heavier, yes; slower, irrelevant. Is it something like to make the enemy feel overconfident?
Is it thought to give an advantage to the strong men or to their horses? Or to both? Not quite, explore. Was it usual to do so or usually stronger men were put on the first line of the cavalery? Assume it was usual. Was it to "exploit" the strenght of the strong men in the combat? YMMV. I mean...also the weaker were able to shot from a certain distance but they are in disadvantage when there will be the combat no? Irrelevant.

Relevant what resistance the center will meet? No. Enemy tactics relevant? If so: charging? Retreating? Standing one's ground? Flanking? Reinforcements? No to all. Do the strongest men relevantly use their strength for something? YMMV. If so: riding? Fighting? Controlling a scared or hurt horse? Moving a hurt or dead horse? Moving something else? Yope. Continue fighting without a horse? No to all, though "control" is relevant.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:10 pm

Control of: horse? Weapon? Own body? If horse, relevant which method of control? Voice relevant?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:47 pm

Control of: horse? Weapon? Own body? Arguably none of these, though YMMV on the horse. Think more broadly. If horse, relevant which method of control? Yes. Voice relevant? No.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:15 pm

Control of the charge? Of the line? Visibility relevant? Banners?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby Earnest » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:28 pm

Wo...maybe because the strongest and heavier tended to pull the reins with more enphasis then weaker ones thus destabilizibg the whole formation?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:36 am

Control of the charge? To an extent. Of the line? Primarily this, though. Visibility relevant? Banners? No to both.

Wo...maybe because the strongest and heavier tended to pull the reins with more enphasis then weaker ones No. thus destabilizibg the whole formation? But yes, there would be some destabilization.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:08 am

Does having them in the center make the line more stable? Less prone to instability? Does it make instabilities self limiting? Are they there because they cause good things by being there? Because would cause bad things by being somewhere else? Is the action by smaller and weaker riders relevant?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:52 pm

Does having them in the center make the line more stable? Less prone to instability? This. Does it make instabilities self limiting? No. Are they there because they cause good things by being there? Because would cause bad things by being somewhere else? This, for SVV of "bad things." Is the action by smaller and weaker riders relevant? Yes.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:35 pm

The action of smaller and weaker riders: near the big and strong ones? Near the enemy? When fighting? Is taking cover relevant? Dying? Horses dying?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:59 pm

The action of smaller and weaker riders: near the big and strong ones? Yes. Near the enemy? Irr. When fighting? Not necessarily, but likely. Is taking cover relevant? Dying? Horses dying? No to all.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:13 pm

Cowardice relevant? Having the stronger fight more? Fear of being seen as weaker? Or less skilled? Does having a strong rider near make the weaker fight worse? Make the line waver? Fall back? Get up in front? Be in the way?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:33 pm

Cowardice relevant? Having the stronger fight more? Fear of being seen as weaker? Or less skilled? Does having a strong rider near make the weaker fight worse? Make the line waver? Fall back? Get up in front? Be in the way? No to all, though the last two are relevant to the stronger rider.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:03 pm

Will the stronger rider be in the way? Go in front of others? Want to protect others? Want to get more of the action?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby KingLouie » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:29 pm

Stronger/steadier/more intimidating ones near the center/front, so as to draw the eyes of the enemy, making the entire force look more imposing from the enemy's perspective?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:15 pm

Will the stronger rider be in the way? Could be. Go in front of others? Could be. Want to protect others? Want to get more of the action? No to the others.

Stronger/steadier/more intimidating ones near the center/front, so as to draw the eyes of the enemy, making the entire force look more imposing from the enemy's perspective? No/Irrelevant. Welcome to the board!
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby KingLouie » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:17 pm

Stronger/faster riders in the middle... hmmm. Would that make the attacking formation a wedge, and with the faster one in the middle, could possibly intimidate the enemy forces to fragment them?

Thanks for the welcome. I frequented the old forum for a number of moons many moons ago. It's great to rediscover this.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:43 am

Stronger/faster riders in the middle... hmmm. Would that make the attacking formation a wedge, and with the faster one in the middle, could possibly intimidate the enemy forces to fragment them? There is no wedge (at least not deliberately). Assume that the speed of all riders is the same. The intent is not intimidation.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby Balin » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:25 pm

Is the cavalry formation made of a straight line? Exactly one straight line?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:08 am

Is the cavalry formation made of a straight line? Yes. Exactly one straight line? Assume this (A column of several lines, each separated by several horselengths, is possible, but there would be the same issue in each line).
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby KingLouie » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:51 am

Small/narrow target for the enemy? Those behind the lead rider(s) well protected? Is this aspect what you're looking for, or is there an extension of this military strategy that you're looking for? The use of cavalry to "divide and conquer" armies using the element of surprise relevant?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:06 pm

Small/narrow target for the enemy? No. Those behind the lead rider(s) well protected? No. Is this aspect what you're looking for, or is there an extension of this military strategy that you're looking for? It's not strictly a combat issue; this could be done (and probably still is) on parade, such as the "Trooping the Colour" ceremony.The use of cavalry to "divide and conquer" armies using the element of surprise relevant? No.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:23 pm

Is riders' ability to see other riders om the line relevant? Would bigger riders near the flanks make others unable to see the center of the line? And therefore unable to keep it straight?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:22 pm

Is riders' ability to see other riders om the line relevant? No. Would bigger riders near the flanks make others unable to see the center of the line? And therefore unable to keep it straight? Keeping the line straight is not technically the problem; it's a side issue that is made more difficult when/if the actual problem occurs.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby KingLouie » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:01 pm

If the one in front has some difficulties, would they get in the way/disrupt the rest of the formation?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:25 am

If the one in front has some difficulties, would they get in the way/disrupt the rest of the formation? They could. Though strictly speaking, no one in a line is "in front."
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:22 pm

Do the big riders have the actual problem? The small ones? Is the problem caused by the enemy? Could the problem occur during training?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:53 am

Do the big riders have the actual problem? Yes. The small ones? No. Is the problem caused by the enemy? No. Could the problem occur during training? Yes.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:27 am

Is this problem only present when on horseback? Could it happen with horses drawing carriages? With infantrymen? When riding other animals?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:07 pm

Is this problem only present when on horseback? Assume yes. Could it happen with horses drawing carriages? No. With infantrymen? Other problems would be encountered before this one came up. When riding other animals? If in the exact same formation, possibly - but I doubt it. Camels and mules probably wouldn't let their riders do this.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby KingLouie » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:57 am

Was this something the riders were making the horses do?
Was it a response of the horse to pain, fatigue, etc. from carrying a heavier rider?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:08 am

Protest from horse relevant? Fatigue? Obedience? Injury to horse?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:40 am

Was this something the riders were making the horses do? Well, they were making them move together in a line.
Was it a response of the horse to pain, fatigue, etc. from carrying a heavier rider? No. Protest from horse relevant? No. Fatigue? No. Obedience? No. Injury to horse? Is possible.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:33 am

Going fast relevant? Slow? Turning? Changing speed rapidly?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:14 pm

Going fast relevant? Probably. Slow? No. Turning? No. Changing speed rapidly? Possibly.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:33 pm

Racing relevant? Competing? One-upmanship?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby Acridian9 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:42 pm

Does it involve falling from the horse? The horse no longer being able to run? My idea is: if the stongest men fall from their horses, they still are able to fight.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:27 pm

Racing relevant? Competing? One-upmanship? No to all; this is partly intended to avoid inadvertently enabling such things.

Hint: In many cultures, charging was about being the first to reach the enemy; in Napoleonic times it was not.


Does it involve falling from the horse? The horse no longer being able to run? No to both. My idea is: if the strongest men fall from their horses, they still are able to fight. It's possible that a man could be unhorsed if this technique failed to work, or was not used; that would, however, be a bad thing.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:05 am

Was charging about keeping the line straight? About disturbing the shape of the enemy line? Flanking relevant?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby Admin » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:43 pm

Was it to keep the line straight?

To keep the speed down?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:18 pm

Is anything done in addition to placing them in the center? If so, relating to: orders? Instructions? Training? Equipment? Horses?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:52 pm

Was charging about keeping the line straight? Yes. About disturbing the shape of the enemy line? Flanking relevant? No to both.

Was it to keep the line straight? Yesish.

To keep the speed down? No.

Is anything done in addition to placing them in the center? No. If so, relating to: orders? Instructions? Training? Equipment? Horses?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:16 am

Are the big strong men able to make horses do something the smaller ones are not? Able to make them do it to a greater degree? Psychology of men relevant? Of horses? Of warriors? Of war?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:54 pm

Are the big strong men able to make horses do something the smaller ones are not? OTRT. Able to make them do it to a greater degree? Also OTRT. Psychology of men relevant? Of horses? Of warriors? Of war? No to all. Psychology is not an issue, but physical size and weight are. Smaller riders and horses would be more likely to suffer the relevant problem.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:43 pm

Problem relating to speed? Endurance? Maneuvering? Terrain? Do small warriors have relevantly smaller horses?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:17 pm

Problem relating to speed? Endurance? A touch of this. Maneuvering? But more of this. Terrain? Might be a factor, but generally irrelevant. Do small warriors have relevantly smaller horses? Not necessarily, but I wouldn't be surprised.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:50 am

Maneuvering: speeding up? Slowing down? Turning? Stopping? Starting? Keeping a specific distance? Keping the horse from doing something it wants to? Making the horse doing something it doesn't want to?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:27 pm

Maneuvering: speeding up? Slowing down? Turning? Stopping? Starting? Keeping a specific distance? This, technically. Keeping the horse from doing something it wants to? Making the horse doing something it doesn't want to? Both probably enter into it, but the horse probable hasn't much of a choice anyway.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby GalFisk » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:30 pm

Can lighter knights relevantly go faster? Is their speed relevant? Are they gallopping?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:55 pm

Can lighter knights relevantly go faster? No. Is their speed relevant? Assume they're charging. Are they galloping? Normally charges were taken at the canter (riders and equipment were heavy!).
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:07 am

Hint: My latest answer is surprisingly relevant.

You have worked out the basic formation. How would stronger riders help to maintain it?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby Acridian9 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:44 pm

Keeping the horse at the canter avoiding it gallopig or slowing down relevant?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:25 pm

Keeping the horse at the canter avoiding it galloping or slowing down relevant? No.
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:46 am

I think an illustration is in order:

Image

How does putting the bigger, stronger men in the center of this charging formation help prevent the formation from being disrupted?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:32 pm

Hint: The formation is so close that riders are touching each other, possibly leaning in on each other. See picture above.
JenBurdoo
 
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby Acridian9 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:34 am

Stronger men are gonig to better stand the pressure?
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Re: [JenBurdoo] Honour the Light Brigade

Postby JenBurdoo » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:24 am

Stronger men are going to better stand the pressure? Got it.

Spoiler:

Here's what happens if the center guy isn't big and strong:


Image
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