[invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2

An archive of solved lateral thinking puzzles.

Moderators: peter365, Balin, kalira, JenBurdoo, Tiger

[invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2

Postby invisiblemimsy » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:04 pm

My father, David Pitt, owns one of the earliest grandfather clocks. It was made c.1700 by one of our ancestors, and it still runs and chimes every hour. The name "Wm Pitt Esq" is inscribed on the clock's face, yet the clock was not made by William. Why is the real clockmaker's name not on the clock?
Last edited by invisiblemimsy on Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
invisiblemimsy
 
Posts: 1512
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:16 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: [invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2

Postby Enjay » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:55 pm

Does the name on the clock refer to William Pitt the Younger? The Elder? Another William Pitt?

Was the William Pitt referred to on the clock related to the real clockmaker? To your father?

Did the clockmaker chose not to put his name on the clock? Did he want people to believe William Pitt made the clock? Did someone else want people to believe that? Did putting "Wm Pitt Esq" on the clock add value to it?
Enjay
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2

Postby invisiblemimsy » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:09 pm

Enjay wrote:Does the name on the clock refer to William Pitt the Younger? The Elder? Sadly no! Just fyi, the Younger didn't have any descendants anyway. Another William Pitt? Yes

Was the William Pitt referred to on the clock related to the real clockmaker? Yes To your father? Yes

Did the clockmaker chose not to put his name on the clock? Yope, SVV of 'chose' Did he want people to believe William Pitt made the clock? Yope Did someone else want people to believe that? Yes Did putting "Wm Pitt Esq" on the clock add value to it? At the time, yes...
User avatar
invisiblemimsy
 
Posts: 1512
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:16 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: [invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2

Postby Earnest » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:21 am

So.
Was there just one clock with the writing Wm Pitt Esq? Does Wm Pitt Esq mean "executed by William Pitt"? Esq = executed? Relevant? Was the writing made before William Pitt's death? After? Relevant where the clock was made? The material of the writing? Its collocation on the clock? The letter W and M? Did the name usually indicate the name of the maker at that time? Or the name of the one who would have inherited the clock? Relevant the reputation of the clockmaker? The profession of william? Did the clockmaker want to make william appear as one of his apprentice? (Like a sort of "look at what my apprentices can do!"?) Is the name of the clockmaker relevant? Is the clockmaker the father of William?
Earnest
 
Posts: 1913
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2

Postby invisiblemimsy » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:53 am

Earnest wrote:So.
Was there just one clock with the writing Wm Pitt Esq? Almost certainly more, though we only know about this one Does Wm Pitt Esq mean "executed by William Pitt"? Esq = executed? "Esq" is an old-fashioned abbreviation for "Esquire". It was a polite title for a man who had no other title, a kind of posh word for "Mr" or "Mister". So, NOT "executed". Relevant? Was the writing made before William Pitt's death? Yes, it was inscribed when the clock was made. After? No Relevant where the clock was made? Irrel, but it would have been London The material of the writing? Irrel Its collocation on the clock? "Collocation" - sorry, what do you mean, Earnest? The letter W and M? "Wm" is an old-fashioned abbreviation of "William"
Did the name usually indicate the name of the maker at that time? Yes Or the name of the one who would have inherited the clock? No Relevant the reputation of the clockmaker? Yope The profession of william? Yes Did the clockmaker want to make william appear as one of his apprentice? (Like a sort of "look at what my apprentices can do!"?) No Is the name of the clockmaker relevant? Yes Is the clockmaker the father of William? No
User avatar
invisiblemimsy
 
Posts: 1512
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:16 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: [invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2

Postby Earnest » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:54 pm

So I meant if it is relevant where the writing is put ob the clock (the specific place on the clock)...
Name of the clockmacker = william? A name beginning with W? Did the surname of the clockmaker begin with M? With the writing Wm Pitt Esq was some of the names / the name of art used by the clockmaker present on the clock? Does the name of the clockmaker appear just during some hours of the day? ...I mean when the ends of the clock are in some specific position they "cut" or complete the letters WM Pitt and the real name of the clockmaker appear? Is the shape of the clock's hands relevant?

William's profession = related to manifacture? To clocks? Did he sold parts of the clock to clockmakers? Was him a clockmaker as well? An artist? Someone famous? Did he want his name on the clock? The name of soneone else with his own name? Was WM Pitt his name of art (so not his real name) and he is the clockmaker? Did he want to show the clock to someone? Did he put the clock in his office? Was him a judge/lawyer? Did he have the clock in his house? In his place of work?
Did he want to make the clock unique?

Somewhere else relevantly? Is the writing clearly visible at a first glance?
Is it a wall clock? Swatch?
Earnest
 
Posts: 1913
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2

Postby invisiblemimsy » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:42 pm

Screen Shot 2018-03-15 at 15.23.06.png
Screen Shot 2018-03-15 at 15.23.06.png (120.72 KiB) Viewed 2337 times
Earnest wrote:So I meant if it is relevant where the writing is put ob the clock (the specific place on the clock)... Yes, it was on the clock face towards the top. It is customary to have the clockmaker's name there.

Name of the clockmacker = william? Yes, William Pitt. A name beginning with W? Yes, William Did the surname of the clockmaker begin with M? No, the surname was Pitt. With the writing Wm Pitt Esq was some of the names / the name of art used by the clockmaker present on the clock? Sorry I don't understand the question Does the name of the clockmaker appear just during some hours of the day? ... No, it's visible all the time I mean when the ends of the clock are in some specific position they "cut" or complete the letters WM Pitt and the real name of the clockmaker appear? No Is the shape of the clock's hands relevant? No. There is only one hand and it is very thin. Very early Grandfather clocks only had one hand. This is IRREL to the puzzle though!

William's profession = related to manifacture? To clocks? Yes Did he sold parts of the clock to clockmakers? Irrel Was him a clockmaker as well? Yes An artist? No Someone famous? He was well known in London in the craft of clockmaking Did he want his name on the clock? Yes The name of soneone else with his own name? No Was WM Pitt his name of art (so not his real name) William Pitt was his real name, and "Wm Pitt" is an abbreviation of "William Pitt" and he is the clockmaker? Not the maker of this clock, no Did he want to show the clock to someone? People in general, yes Did he put the clock in his office? No Was him a judge/lawyer? No Did he have the clock in his house? Possibly... In his place of work? But this is more likely
Did he want to make the clock unique? All his clocks were individually made, so would have been unique in small ways... largely irrel though

Somewhere else relevantly? What? Is the writing clearly visible at a first glance? Yes
Is it a wall clock? No, it's a 6 foot tall floor-standing grandfather clock Swatch? No lol

The clock looks something like this, (above) but with one hand


EDIT: THE REAL NAME OF THE CLOCKMAKER WAS NOT WILLIAM.
Last edited by invisiblemimsy on Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
invisiblemimsy
 
Posts: 1512
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:16 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: [invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2

Postby Earnest » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:10 pm

Puzzle statement says that the clock was not made by William, but above from your answer I've understood that the name of the clockmaker is actually william...so are we talking of two different williams? So we have two williams: william A = clockmaker and william B the client of the clockmaker who is a clockmaker as well? Or william A = william B? Do we need to figure out why william B did not want his name on the clock?
Earnest
 
Posts: 1913
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2

Postby invisiblemimsy » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:29 pm

Earnest wrote:Puzzle statement says that the clock was not made by William, but above from your answer I've understood that the name of the clockmaker is actually william...so are we talking of two different williams? So we have two williams: william A = clockmaker and william B the client of the clockmaker who is a clockmaker as well? Or william A = william B? Do we need to figure out why william B did not want his name on the clock?

Sorry, Earnest. My mistake. The actual clockmaker was NOT William, but someone else. The name on the clock states that the clockmaker was William, which was incorrect. I've put a correction on my reply above.
User avatar
invisiblemimsy
 
Posts: 1512
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:16 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: [invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2

Postby GalFisk » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:48 am

Did rhe actual clockmaker write William's name there? If so, by his/her own free will? Name of the actual maker relevant? Relation between the actual maker and William relevant? If so, was it friendly? Adversarial? Both? Neither?
GalFisk
 
Posts: 8215
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 8:03 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: [invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2

Postby Earnest » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:04 am

No problem for mistake...just I don't get the point: actual name of the maker is not William; so we have William Pitt which is a clockmaker as well but who has not done the clock which has his name written right? If so, another clockmaker with a different name has put the name WM Pitt inside the clock. And that's all we know right?

So...did the clockmaker use the name William usually? Were clockmaker and William competitors? Did william buy the clock or was it a gift? If so by the clockmaker? Was "WM Pitt Esq" the only relevant writing on the clock (a part from numbers for hours ...)? Did the clockmaker accept the will of William ? Or did he want to put his name on the clock somehow? Did William and the clockmaker have different techniques to make clocks? Did William want to study how the clockmaker realized the clock? Was it like a new "brand" william wanted to adopt for his clocks? And so he commissioned a clock with his name (="part of a brand") to see how the clocks with new brand look like?
Earnest
 
Posts: 1913
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2

Postby invisiblemimsy » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:40 am

GalFisk wrote:Did rhe actual clockmaker write William's name there? Yes If so, by his/her own free will? Yes Name of the actual maker relevant? Yes Relation between the actual maker and William relevant? Yes If so, was it friendly? This,
with a very slight ish
Adversarial? Both? Neither?

GOOD QUESTIONS!
User avatar
invisiblemimsy
 
Posts: 1512
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:16 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: [invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2

Postby invisiblemimsy » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:13 am

Earnest wrote:No problem for mistake...just I don't get the point: actual name of the maker is not William; so we have William Pitt which is a clockmaker as well but who has not done the clock which has his name written right? Correct If so, another clockmaker with a different name has put the name WM Pitt inside the clock. On the face of the clock, yes And that's all we know right? Well, there are quite a few more things which have been discovered so far...

So...did the clockmaker use the name William usually? When making clocks, Yes. Otherwise, No Were clockmaker and William competitors? No Did william buy the clock or was it a gift? If so by the clockmaker? No to both Was "WM Pitt Esq" the only relevant writing on the clock (a part from numbers for hours ...)? Yes Did the clockmaker accept the will of William ? Yes Or did he want to put his name on the clock somehow? Possibly, but it wasn't to be Did William and the clockmaker have different techniques to make clocks? No but OTRT, explore... Did William want to study how the clockmaker realized the clock? Was it like a new "brand" william wanted to adopt for his clocks? And so he commissioned a clock with his name (="part of a brand") to see how the clocks with new brand look like? No to these
User avatar
invisiblemimsy
 
Posts: 1512
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:16 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: [invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2

Postby Enjay » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:55 pm

Did William ask the clockmaker to put William's name on the clock? If not, did William know he had done that? Was he pleased? Indifferent? Displeased?

Were William and the clockmaker related? Friends? Co-workers? Did they have a teacher-student relationship?

Did William put his own name on the clocks he made himself? The other clockmaker's name?

Did the other clockmaker put William's name on every clock he made?

Is the first name of the clockmaker who made your family's clock relevant? His last name? Is his last name Pitt?
Enjay
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2

Postby invisiblemimsy » Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:54 pm

Enjay wrote:Did William ask the clockmaker to put William's name on the clock? Probably If not, did William know he had done that? This is also possible Was he pleased? Mostly this Indifferent? But perhaps a little bit this Displeased? No

Were William and the clockmaker related? Yes Friends? No Co-workers? Yesish Did they have a teacher-student relationship? No

Did William put his own name on the clocks he made himself? Yes The other clockmaker's name? No

Did the other clockmaker put William's name on every clock he made? Yes

Is the first name of the clockmaker who made your family's clock relevant? Yope His last name? Is his last name Pitt? Yes


Good questions!
User avatar
invisiblemimsy
 
Posts: 1512
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:16 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: [invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2

Postby Enjay » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:58 pm

Were William and the real clockmaker siblings? Was one the father/mother of the other? (Don't think we have established if the real clockmaker is male? Female? Relevant?) Grandfather/mother? Aunt/Uncle? Cousin? Related by marriage?

Was there some reason why the real clockmaker couldn't admit to have made the clock? Were they not supposed to be making clocks? If so, because they were untrained? Young? Female? Foreign? Set aside from society in some other way?
Enjay
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: [invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:41 pm

Enjay wrote:Were William and the real clockmaker siblings? YES Was one the father/mother of the other? No (Don't think we have established if the real clockmaker is male? Female? This Relevant?) Yes Grandfather/mother? Aunt/Uncle? Cousin? Related by marriage? Sister/brother

Was there some reason why the real clockmaker couldn't admit to have made the clock? Yes Were they not supposed to be making clocks? Yes If so, because they were untrained? Young? Female? This Foreign? Set aside from society in some other way?




**************************$POILER**************************

William Pitt was the oldest son, and inherited the family clockmaking business. He did make clocks, but so did his sister Florence, and apparently (according to family legend) she made better clocks than he did. Certainly, the clock is a very fine example, and it is a regulator, which would have been very accurate for the time, and used to set other clocks by. It is possible that it would have stood in his shop as an advertisement for his clockmaking skills.

Anyway, in those days middle class women were generally wives, governesses, and spinsters. it would have been unseemly for a woman to be a clockmaker, hence the reason she would have inscribed her brother's name on the clock face.

Well done Enjay for the solve! And to Earnest and Galfisk for playing.
User avatar
invisiblemimsy
 
Posts: 1512
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:16 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: [invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2 [*TOCKED*]

Postby Earnest » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:29 pm

Nicely worked out Enjay and thanks again invisiblmimsy!
Earnest
 
Posts: 1913
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 7:52 am

Re: [invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2 [*TOCKED*]

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:00 am

Thanks Earnest
User avatar
invisiblemimsy
 
Posts: 1512
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:16 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: [invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2 [*TOCKED*]

Postby irishelk » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:47 pm

What a great story and a beautiful family heirloom!
User avatar
irishelk
 
Posts: 1751
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:25 am
Location: Washington DC-ish

Re: [invisiblemimsy] Sign of the Times 2 [*TOCKED*]

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:26 pm

Thanks irishelk! Sadly there are no more Pitts because my eldest brother died and the second hasn't had any children (and I'm female). It'll still get passed on down though.
User avatar
invisiblemimsy
 
Posts: 1512
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:16 pm
Location: Scotland


Return to Solved Lateral Thinking Puzzles

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests
cron