[dukhsan] Stasis

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[dukhsan] Stasis

Postby dukhsan » Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:38 pm

One is life, two is death.
Last edited by dukhsan on Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby WiZ » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:39 pm

Kidney donation?
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby Earnest » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:40 pm

Is it the number of steps before the ravine? Is it a number that would appear after the toss of a coin? Are those numbers that would appear solewhere? If so they must be followed as instructions in a game?

Are meters? A measure? Measure of a distance? Milligrams? Hours? Measure of time?
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby dukhsan » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:36 pm

Kidney donation? No.

Is it the number of steps before the ravine? Is it a number that would appear after the toss of a coin? Neither.
Are those numbers that would appear somewhere? If so they must be followed as instructions in a game? The numerals 1 and 2 and words one/two are not themselves something you would see here.

Are meters? A measure? This is closest, I would say. Measure of a distance? Milligrams? Hours? Measure of time?

Some nice guesses so far.
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby Balin » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:22 pm

Under the same guidelines as the puzzle statement, would 0 be life? Death? Even possible? Would 3 be life? Death? Even possible?
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby invisiblemimsy » Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:24 am

Russian roulette? Another game, or challenge? Do the numbers literally lead to death? Or represent death? Or do they mean something else? Such as losing or succeeding? How far you might go towards or away from something?
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby dukhsan » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:17 am

Under the same guidelines as the puzzle statement, would 0 be life? Death? Even possible? I would have to say impossible.
Would 3 be life? Death? Even possible? Death.

Russian roulette? Another game, or challenge? Neither. Do the numbers literally lead to death? Going from one to two is deadly. Or represent death? Or do they mean something else? Such as losing or succeeding? How far you might go towards or away from something? In a way, for a super specific concept of towards/away? Can't say if this'd be helpful right now, though.
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby Earnest » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:17 am

One is life = one and you are able to survive? Someone else is able to survive? You give life?

Anyway...we are talking about the life and the death of a human being right? Or could it be applied also to animals? Is it something fictional? So...is death by overdose? By natural causes? By heart attack? Electroshock? Through a weapon? Through a poison? A chemical substantce? Are medicinal products relevant? Die by falling from a certain height?

Are one and two the "number of something" ? Number of organs? Is precision somehow involved here? Luck? Patience? Is it something that usually is done under certain circumstances? Like not anyone is allowed to do one or two of those things but just a category of people which is expert in doing it? Is it evident that two will conduct to death? Are 1.3 or 1.5 allowed? Or we must take 1 or 2? ....we said "measure is closest"...so....is it a unit of measure at all? Is it tons? Kg? Can we say "2 is too much"? And to be sure is it "one and two" or "one time and two times.."?
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby invisiblemimsy » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:27 am

Is it some kind of series, mathematical or otherwise? Such as the Fibonacci series? Functions?
Is it a quantity of something else? Is there only life and death and 'not possible' or are there other states?
What is 3, 4, 5, 10, 20?
Does each number in itself = life or death, or is it a case of one number moving to another number?
Does 1 ALWAYS = life or can it = death sometimes?
Does each number lead to the next one? Can it lead to one or more higher numbers? Can it go backwards, e.g. 3 to 2?
Is the 'super specific concept of towards and away' a directional thing?
How about this: 1=life, 2=death, 3=death, 4=life, 5=death, 6=death, 7= life, 8=death...
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby dukhsan » Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:40 pm

One is life = one and you are able to survive? Someone else is able to survive? You give life? Organisms can survive at one.

Anyway...we are talking about the life and the death of a human being right? Or could it be applied also to animals? Humans, but also most life as far as I can tell. Is it something fictional? It's real. So...is death by overdose? By natural causes? By heart attack? Electroshock? Through a weapon? Through a poison? A chemical substantce? Are medicinal products relevant? Die by falling from a certain height? Of these, overdose and chemical substance. Poison is very strange in this context, but technically maybe?

Are one and two the "number of something" ? Yes. Number of organs? No. Is precision somehow involved here? Not as in throwing a dart or making a precise movement, anyway. Luck? Patience? No. Is it something that usually is done under certain circumstances? This never happens ordinarily. Like not anyone is allowed to do one or two of those things but just a category of people which is expert in doing it? An expert would be better at it, but ordinary folks could shift an organism from one towards two. Is it evident that two will conduct to death? As far as I know, all known evidence points to death at two. Are 1.3 or 1.5 allowed? There is a smooth, linear scale between 1 and 2, and most organisms are never precisely at 1, but close enough that it doesn't kill them. Also, death happens at some point before 2 itself is reached, and being at 2 itself is certainly fatal. Or we must take 1 or 2? ....we said "measure is closest"...so....is it a unit of measure at all? It is a measure of a specific thing. Is it tons? Kg? Weight is technically relevant, but neither of those units. Can we say "2 is too much"? Yes, in that two leads to death. And to be sure is it "one and two" or "one time and two times.."? One and two is better than one time/two times.

Is it some kind of series, mathematical or otherwise? Such as the Fibonacci series? Functions? None.
Is it a quantity of something else? Yes. Is there only life and death and 'not possible' or are there other states? Either life or death.
What is 3, 4, 5, 10, 20? 3 is death, higher numbers are impossible.
Does each number in itself = life or death, or is it a case of one number moving to another number? An organism at one is alive, at or close enough to two it is dead.
Does 1 ALWAYS = life or can it = death sometimes? In this scenario, being at one does not innately kill an organism.
Does each number lead to the next one? Can it lead to one or more higher numbers? Can it go backwards, e.g. 3 to 2? Between 1 and 2 (and technically 3, but 3 would seem to be fatal in both the same AND a different way) there is freedom to move in either direction towards 1 or 2 if the right actions are performed.
Is the 'super specific concept of towards and away' a directional thing? Not as in north or south.
How about this: 1=life, 2=death, 3=death, 4=life, 5=death, 6=death, 7= life, 8=death... No.
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby invisiblemimsy » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:05 pm

So, since 1=life and 2=death, can we say that the chance of death increases as the organism tends towards 2? Is the organism is either wholly alive (state 1) or wholly dead (state 2)?

Are there rules which dictate at which point death occurs, if at all? Is it certain that at some stage a live thing becomes a dead one, and vice versa? Or likely?

And you say this can work in reverse, so a 2 (dead) can become a 1 (live)... in which case, is it certain that a dead thing will return to being a live thing?

Could we use 'white' and 'black' instead of '1' and '2'? How about 'top' and 'bottom'?

By 'organism', are we talking about a living/dead thing in the biological sense? Physical sense? Or a simulation, artificial intelligence, or something else?

Re 3, If you add alive + dead (i.e. 1+2) to get 3, does this mean that something comes to a full stop? Or that the state can't be reversed? i.e. that it is now permanently dead?
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby dukhsan » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:12 pm

So, since 1=life and 2=death, can we say that the chance of death increases as the organism tends towards 2? Yes. Is the organism is either wholly alive (state 1) or wholly dead (state 2)? Heading towards 2 at some point on the 1 --> 2 line, organisms will die, with the possible exception of bacteria or similar (this may be minor errata, but larger-scale life remains the same.) If susceptible organisms only get part of the way there and reverse towards 1 again, they could survive with temporary or permanent damage. I am not sure of the exact data here, but a sufficient transition from 1 towards 2 will harm the organism guaranteed.

Are there rules which dictate at which point death occurs, if at all? We have some data on it, but specifics seem irrelevant. Depends on the organism. Is it certain that at some stage a live thing becomes a dead one, and vice versa? Or likely? With a number sufficiently larger than 1, our relevant living thing dies. There is no resurrection.

And you say this can work in reverse, so a 2 (dead) can become a 1 (live)... in which case, is it certain that a dead thing will return to being a live thing? Something about the the organism can go back towards 1 from a position closer to 2. Like my above answer, I imagine this could save it if it hasn't already died, but it may survive with damage if so.

Could we use 'white' and 'black' instead of '1' and '2'? How about 'top' and 'bottom'? No.

By 'organism', are we talking about a living/dead thing in the biological sense? Physical sense? Or a simulation, artificial intelligence, or something else? A living thing with Earth biology.

Re 3, If you add alive + dead (i.e. 1+2) to get 3, does this mean that something comes to a full stop? Or that the state can't be reversed? i.e. that it is now permanently dead? Going from 1 to 3 would be an analogous process of going from 1 to 2. You could "combine" going from 1 to 2 and 1 to 3, but let's not for these purposes. 1 to 3 is much, much harder to do on the real-live Earth than 1 to 2, but is theoretically possible.

This is a specific-enough puzzle that I am fine with giving longer answer explanations - it's something I consider very interesting personally.
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby invisiblemimsy » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:28 pm

Ah, I was thinking it could be Conway’s Game of Life &/or Turing Machine. But no...
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby invisiblemimsy » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:34 pm

Could you have <1? Should we investigate the special circumstances for 3? How about which life forms this applies to? All, some, mammals, insects, individual cells or cell systems, etc? Natural/default cycle or in response to a trigger?
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby dukhsan » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:38 am

Ah, I was thinking it could be Conway’s Game of Life &/or Turing Machine. But no... Unfortunately not.

Could you have <1? No. Should we investigate the special circumstances for 3? Not especially - it just happens to work the same way as 2 for causing death, in addition to killing by a possibly worse but irrelevant mechanism. How about which life forms this applies to? All, some, mammals, insects, individual cells or cell systems, etc? We can just focus on multi-celled organisms; whatever is immune is irrelevant. Natural/default cycle or in response to a trigger? The odds of this happening naturally in ordinary conditions, without applying the trigger that actively drives us closer to 2, are effectively zero.
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby Earnest » Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:11 am

...is 2 necessarely greater than 1 in this kind of experimebt? (Is it a lab experiment?) I mean...setting something to two necessarely means give an higger number of something to the organism? Is the something usually usefull to life if not present in excess? Was the something injected in the organism? In a certain part of it?

Is the something an organic substance? (E.g. blood? If so blood of another species? Of another human?) Is the something liquid? Solid? Gas? Does the state of the sonething vary depending on its use? (E.g. during the trials with data you have liquefied that substance which instead is commonly founf as gas? Adrenaline?)

Does the weight matter in that organisms/subjects weighting more are less likely to die/ more likely to die before reaching the two/after having reached the two? Is the something food? Something edible? Are the number one and two decided by the experimenter? Can common folks increase the sonething from one to two voluntarily? If so on their own self? On other people? Can they do it unvoluntarily? If so by performing a certain action involving: talking loud? Injection? Going in some specific place?
Are astronauts mainly subject to this? Are organism living in specific places of Earth subject mainly to this rule? (E.g. in Oceans?..
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby dukhsan » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:24 pm

...is 2 necessarely greater than 1 in this kind of experimebt? Yes. (Is it a lab experiment?) Could be done anywhere, more easily in a lab designed for this. I mean...setting something to two necessarely means give an higger number of something to the organism? It changes something about parts of the organism. Change seems a better word than give. Is the something usually usefull to life if not present in excess? Very small amounts of it are naturally there, I am not aware of it being necessarily helpful in any amount. Was the something injected in the organism? In a certain part of it? Added in a way that allows it to (eventually) affect the whole body.

Is the something an organic substance? No, it does not contain carbon. (E.g. blood? If so blood of another species? Of another human?) Is the something liquid? Solid? Gas? It's a liquid. Does the state of the sonething vary depending on its use? (E.g. during the trials with data you have liquefied that substance which instead is commonly founf as gas? Adrenaline?) Assume it is always a liquid.

Does the weight matter in that organisms/subjects weighting more are less likely to die/ more likely to die before reaching the two/after having reached the two? The organism's overall weight is irrelevant. The weight goes up when it approaches 2 from 1, but the death is not obesity or anything seemingly like it. Is the something food? Something edible? It can be consumed, and tiny amounts are frequently consumed by all humans and all organisms. Are the number one and two decided by the experimenter? The state of being at 1 and the state of being at 2, and any substances involved, are well defined worldwide. Can common folks increase the sonething from one to two voluntarily? If so on their own self? On other people? Can they do it unvoluntarily? They can do it voluntarily to anyone, though I have to imagine it would be very difficult to do it to another human without them noticing. If so by performing a certain action involving: talking loud? Injection? Going in some specific place? None.
Are astronauts mainly subject to this? No. Are organism living in specific places of Earth subject mainly to this rule? (E.g. in Oceans?.. In ordinary conditions, this has to be a no.
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby Earnest » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:00 pm

Is the substance written down in the back of the box or bottle of some beverages/drinks? Is alcohol involved? Is the substance present in water? Coca cola? Wine?

1 and 2 are measures of liquid substance? Is it simple to understand when we are passing from 1 to 2? Is it a gradual process? Does it take a long time for a human to move from 1 to 2? Are those world wide measures?
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby peter365 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:02 pm

If you willfully changed someone from a 1 to a 2 would you have committed a crime? Could i without any equipment make someone a two? Could this happen as a byproduct of something intended to benefit the person e.g. a medical procedure.

Has there been any recorded deaths due to this?
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby dukhsan » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:17 pm

Is the substance written down in the back of the box or bottle of some beverages/drinks? No. Is alcohol involved? No. Is the substance present in water? Coca cola? Wine? All three.

1 and 2 are measures of liquid substance? When an organism goes from 1 to 2, something is happening regarding this liquid inside the organism. Is it simple to understand when we are passing from 1 to 2? It may be hard to observe externally, if you don't know what's happening, until it begins to harm an organism. Is it a gradual process? Depends on the organism, but it's not instantaneous. Does it take a long time for a human to move from 1 to 2? I imagine it would, based on how this would have to be done. Are those world wide measures? Yes, this doesn't care about location.

If you willfully changed someone from a 1 to a 2 would you have committed a crime? In that it'd injure them, yes. Could i without any equipment make someone a two? With difficulty, yes. Could this happen as a byproduct of something intended to benefit the person e.g. a medical procedure. No.

Has there been any recorded deaths due to this? Humans, not that I'm aware, but possible. Animals/other organisms, certainly yes.
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby Earnest » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:04 pm

So does the death of the individual depend on which part of his body you inject the substance? Is it CO2? (Not really an expert in chemical field) a chemical substance which can be found in the periodic table? So can I invoke the list of the elements in the periodic table?
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby dukhsan » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:11 pm

So does the death of the individual depend on which part of his body you inject the substance? It could be more efficient to add the substance by consumption than by injection, but not really. Is it CO2? (Not really an expert in chemical field) a chemical substance which can be found in the periodic table? So can I invoke the list of the elements in the periodic table? That's fair, and good question - the elements in this substance are hydrogen and oxygen.
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby invisiblemimsy » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:44 pm

So you feed the individual with water? Or another liquid compound? Does it die when a certain amount ('too much') has been consumed/absorbed, or when ANY has been added? Does this thing thrive when kept dry? Does it effectively drown? Does its pH change too much for it to remain viable? What is its natural pH?
Apart from Hydrogen and Oxygen, are there any other elements present? Or is there only hydrogen and oxygen? E.g. is it peroxide? Is it an acid or a base?
Does this process cause cancer? Ageing?
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby dukhsan » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:12 pm

So you feed the individual with water? Or another liquid compound? It's water. Does it die when a certain amount ('too much') has been consumed/absorbed, or when ANY has been added? Too much. Does this thing thrive when kept dry? Does it effectively drown? The death we are looking at is not by dryness or drowning, and if an organism is vulnerable the death seems to be regardless of whether it's a land or sea creature. Does its pH change too much for it to remain viable? What is its natural pH? Good question - interestingly there is likely something weird with the pH going on. Based on the chemistry involved, I'm debating if this is relevant at all. Try exploring related questions if you have any - if you need to look up acid/base science at this point that's completely fine. We're close, and I may not need the 100% correct answer.

Apart from Hydrogen and Oxygen, are there any other elements present? Or is there only hydrogen and oxygen? E.g. is it peroxide? Is it an acid or a base? Only the hydrogen and oxygen in water are primarily relevant. The water interacts with the rest of the body, but that's as far as other present elements go. No peroxide, and water is both an acid and a base - an amphoteric substance.
Does this process cause cancer? Ageing? Neither; if somehow it does, the organism is likely already dead before these kick in.
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby peter365 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:44 am

Just to clarify, does the 1 refer to the Oxygen atom in Water? But hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) is not relevant?
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby invisiblemimsy » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:58 am

@peter365, there's an old joke which goes something like, Peter drank H2O, Jane drank H20 too, Jane died.
I'll get me coat.
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby dukhsan » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:49 pm

Just to clarify, does the 1 refer to the Oxygen atom in Water? No. But hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) is not relevant? No. So we're down to the numbers meaning something about hydrogen.

@peter365, there's an old joke which goes something like, Peter drank H2O, Jane drank H20 too, Jane died.
I'll get me coat.
I enjoy this one as well:
Johnny was a chemist's son,
But Johnny is no more
What Johnny thought was H₂O
Was H₂SO₄.
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby invisiblemimsy » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:03 pm

Is this purely a chemistry puzzle? It's nearly 40 years since I did any chemistry.
You said this stuff is water. So it's neither an acid nor a base.
Could it be acidic water? With an extra ion?
HOH? H2O+? H3O+ ?
I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing here... I'm basically (ha!) just sticking H's and O's down.
Is it that joke about dihydrogen monoxide - on the internet there are warnings not to drink it?

Could we have a recap please and thank you?
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby dukhsan » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:16 pm

Is this purely a chemistry puzzle? It's nearly 40 years since I did any chemistry. I studied chemistry, so it's a temptation of mine to make puzzles based around it - there is something lateral about this one, and the forum has solved quite a few impressive things, so I'll generally take a chance if I think of a science-based challenge. That said, there will be a hint in this response.
You said this stuff is water. So it's neither an acid nor a base. The chemistry involved does sort of care about water acting as either, but all I need at this point is a pecularity about some hydrogen atoms themselves.
Could it be acidic water? With an extra ion? As it turns out, normal water "self-ionizes", reacting with itself to make ions. So they are there.
HOH? H2O+? H3O+ ? The last of those (hydronium, with the 3) is technically relevant to how this all works, but again it's not something needed to solve the problem.
I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing here... I'm basically (ha!) just sticking H's and O's down. That's fair.
Is it that joke about dihydrogen monoxide - on the internet there are warnings not to drink it? I absolutely love that - I have an idea in mind about writing a chemistry book called May Contain Water, on chemical misconceptions and the like.

Could we have a recap please and thank you? Something unusual about certain water can kill people. Going from 1 to 2 requires making some modification to one or both of the hydrogen atoms in a molecule of water. The hint is to look at what atoms themselves are made up of.
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby Earnest » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:41 am

Do 1 and 2 appear in the periodic table? Atomic number or something like that? Is sonething like if we change that parameter from 1 to 2 the element becomes deadly? Becomes another chemical element?
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby dukhsan » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:32 pm

Do 1 and 2 appear in the periodic table? Both refer to hydrogen somehow. Atomic number or something like that? Hydrogen's atomic number is 1. The solution is what 1 and 2 mean. Is sonething like if we change that parameter from 1 to 2 the element becomes deadly? In this situation, yes. Becomes another chemical element? No - but this is pretty close logic.
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby Levonhardt » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:44 pm

If we add a second hydrogen element do we create the dangerous concoction?
Is this common in a hospital setting?
Has it been used to administer death in the past?
Is electricity involved at all?
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:13 pm

Different isotopes of hydrogen?
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis

Postby dukhsan » Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:16 am

Different isotopes of hydrogen? There we have it. Full answer below. You and Earnest in particular have asked some great questions.


**************SPOILER****************

Water, H₂O, makes up the majority of most organisms by weight. The most common hydrogen atom, symbol H, contains in its core - its nucleus - a single proton. (This atom is also known as protium.) An isotope of hydrogen differs by the number of neutrons in the nucleus, and the isotope deuterium, which actually has its own symbol D in some situations, has one proton and also one neutron in its nucleus.

If both hydrogen atoms in a water molecule are replaced by deuterium - normally, it's way less than 1% deuterium across hydrogen atoms as a whole - then we get heavy water, D₂O. This actually reacts substantially differently than ordinary water does; deuterium is twice as heavy, so the countless biological reactions that utilize hydrogen (it is the most abundant atom in the body) get bogged down. If a susceptible organism is fed enormous amounts of heavy water, such that it replaces most to all of the water in the body (and, eventually, replaces the hydrogen atoms in non-water molecules as well), then metabolism shuts down, sterility and other issues can occur, and death finally strikes.

Going from 1 to 2 means taking the average hydrogen atom in the body from having one particle in the nucleus, ordinary hydrogen, to two particles in the nucleus, deuterium.

Stasis is the name of an iconic Magic the Gathering card, tangentially associated with the stopping of life and water-based wizardry.

Thanks to everyone for playing! I'll try to not exclusively think of obscure chemistry puzzles, but no promises... >:D

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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis (BURIED)

Postby Earnest » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:08 am

Oh many thanks dukhsan for both the puzzle and the compliments!
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis (BURIED)

Postby Acridian9 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:59 am

Oooh.... Magic!! I'm a L2 judge!
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis (BURIED)

Postby invisiblemimsy » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:58 am

Thanks dukhsan. How/why would an organism get fed heavy water though?
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis (BURIED)

Postby dukhsan » Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:12 am

I'm not aware of heavy water being naturally concentrated in any part of the world, other than by human effort - used in nuclear power plants or other research I believe. It would take active poisoning, and in all ordinary circumstances could be nearly impossible without being caught, but animals have been studied under these conditions.

Also forgot to mention tritium, another isotope of hydrogen which would be the 3 to deuterium's 2. Tritium could kill by the same mechanism, but when ingested it's quite radioactive, so that'd probably be even worse.
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Re: [dukhsan] Stasis (BURIED)

Postby invisiblemimsy » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:07 pm

Cool.
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