[IrishElk] Primal Fear

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[IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby irishelk » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:25 am

Someone inadvertently made it so that I will probably never do something I always had an interest in doing.
I'm going to make it so that other people will probably never get to do this thing either.
But, if I disqualify enough people from this thing, we might all be able to do it again. What is it?
Last edited by irishelk on Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby GalFisk » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:01 pm

Tourism relevant? Vandalism? A finite resource?
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby wolfier » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:17 pm

is your motivation of doing this to others that you'll be all able to do it again eventually?
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby Balin » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:40 pm

Did the someone make it undoable as part of their job?
Will you make it undoable as part of your job?
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby irishelk » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:54 am

GalFisk

Tourism relevant? Vandalism? A finite resource? No to all.


wolfier

is your motivation of doing this to others that you'll be all able to do it again eventually? In part.


Balin

Did the someone make it undoable as part of their job? Yesish, but irr.
Will you make it undoable as part of your job? No.
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby GalFisk » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:45 pm

Technology relevant? Nature? Flight? Diving? Laws? Travel? Will anyone be able to do this thing when you're not?
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby Earnest » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:02 am

Is the fact that you are doing it preventing in itself someone else to do it? Is the fact that you'll never do the thing you were interested in due to an unchangeable charachteristic of yours? Due to a relevant permanent modification inadvertidely made by the someone to the something?

"we might all be able to do it again" = us in the forum? Everyone as human being? Anyone interested in doing it?

Is it necessary a permission for doing it? Is it now dangerous? Disgusting? Boring? Just for some kind of people?

Can it be done everywhere in the world? On the internet?

I will probably never do something I always had an interest in doing = you cannot do it? You do not have the interest of doing it? You are prevented from doing it?

"Someone inadvertently made it so that..." = someone made a mistake that enforced a law preventing some people do it? Are there age constraints for doing it?

Could anyone now make it so if he/she wants to?
Is it something that lot of people do now? Is the fact that lot of people do it preventing you from doing it?

Is the logic the following: A (who you don't know right?) made it so that B (only B or B and others?) will probably never do it. B will do it so that others will never do it. So, if also a person C will do it he/she will prevent D and others to do it? Meaning that at any iteration someone is disqualified from the thing? Or you need to do it in a particular way to prevent others from doing it?
To be sure...when someone is doing it, could someone else do it at the same time?

Is it something like doing a picture with a famous painting? Or sometging which is against the rules so that if no one does it again maybe it will be allowed to do it again? Is the fact of disqualifying people from doing it allowing everyone to do it because: less people does it? The less the people doing it the less the crowd? The less the people doing it the more the space? The more the internet connection? The more the possibility of booking something? The less the price for buying something?
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby irishelk » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:22 pm

GalFisk

Technology relevant? Nature? Flight? Diving? Laws? Yesish, no to rest. Travel?
Will anyone be able to do this thing when you're not? Yes.


Earnest

Is the fact that you are doing it preventing in itself someone else to do it? Not relevantly. Is the fact that you'll never do the thing you were interested in due to an unchangeable charachteristic of yours? In a sense--I can't "fix" it now. Due to a relevant permanent modification inadvertidely made by the someone to the something? Noish.

"we might all be able to do it again" = us in the forum? Yesish, maybe explore. Everyone as human being? Not every single human, but "people" generally. Anyone interested in doing it? No, there might still be other factors preventing it.

Is it necessary a permission for doing it? Yes. Is it now dangerous? Disgusting? Boring? Just for some kind of people? Can be all, but irr.

Can it be done everywhere in the world? Most places, with variations. On the internet? No.

I will probably never do something I always had an interest in doing = you cannot do it? No, it would still be theoretically possible. You do not have the interest of doing it? No. You are prevented from doing it? Probably.

"Someone inadvertently made it so that..." = someone made a mistake that enforced a law preventing some people do it? No. Are there age constraints for doing it? Yes, but irr.

Could anyone now make it so if he/she wants to? You mean make me able to do it again? Certain people in certain circumstances could allow me to.
Is it something that lot of people do now? DOYD of "a lot." Probably hundreds are at any given time. Is the fact that lot of people do it preventing you from doing it? Noish.

Is the logic the following: A (who you don't know right?) made it so that B (only B or B and others?) will probably never do it. Correct: B (me) and many others. B will do it so that others will never do it. No. So, if also a person C will do it he/she will prevent D and others to do it? No, doing it does not prevent others from ever doing it. Meaning that at any iteration someone is disqualified from the thing? Or you need to do it in a particular way to prevent others from doing it? There is a chain reaction somewhat like this going on, but see above.

To be sure...when someone is doing it, could someone else do it at the same time? Yes.

Is it something like doing a picture with a famous painting? No. Or sometging which is against the rules so that if no one does it again maybe it will be allowed to do it again? No. Is the fact of disqualifying people from doing it allowing everyone to do it because: less people does it? Yope, OTRT. The less the people doing it the less the crowd? The less the people doing it the more the space? The more the internet connection? The more the possibility of booking something? The less the price for buying something? No to all.
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby wolfier » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:54 pm

Does this activity (of "doing it") require only permission? money? electricity? do you do it on your own or with someone else? Is it an indoors or an outdoors activity? can it only be done by adults? those online?

Does everyone who can "do it" perform the same step that you can do to prevent others from doing it?
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby irishelk » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:26 pm

wolfier

Does this activity (of "doing it") require only permission? More steps need to happen, but nothing else physical. money? No. electricity? No.do you do it on your own or with someone else? With others. Is it an indoors or an outdoors activity? Indoors. can it only be done by adults? Yes. those online? No.

Does everyone who can "do it" perform the same step that you can do to prevent others from doing it? No.
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby GalFisk » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:01 pm

Can you do it alone? With 1 other person? 2? 3? 30? Is there a rule or law against doing it? Is it hard to find others to do it eith? Is there a rule or law that inadvertantly forbids it? Can it be done in a home? Does it require a building made for the purpose of doing that? A room? Is it a sport? Is it done for fun? Money? In front of spectators?
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby irishelk » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:36 pm

GalFisk

Can you do it alone? No. With 1 other person? 2? 3? 30? Where I live, I believe the minimum total number of people taking part in the activity is nine. Can vary. Is there a rule or law against doing it? No, but there are many rules and laws about it. Is it hard to find others to do it with? In a sense. Is there a rule or law that inadvertantly forbids it? Not the thing I was interested in doing, no. Can it be done in a home? No. Does it require a building made for the purpose of doing that? Usually. A room? Yes. Is it a sport? No. Is it done for fun? No. Money? No, though I would have been paid. In front of spectators? Almost always.
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby wolfier » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:51 am

is it a sport? is gambling relevant? do people divide into teams? is racing among any kind of animal relevant?
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby Balin » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:38 pm

Will you not be able to do it because of your location? Race? Gender? Size?
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby irishelk » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:19 pm

wolfier

is it a sport? No. is gambling relevant? No. do people divide into teams? No, except in a vague sense that will only mislead. is racing among any kind of animal relevant? No.


Balin

Will you not be able to do it because of your location? Race? Gender? Size? No to all.
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby irishelk » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:56 am

Hints in white if you want them:

1. I could be picked to do something, but now I am unlikely to be picked.

2. I have somewhat morbid interests.
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby GalFisk » Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:04 pm

Can you choose to do it? Do most people want to do it? Crime relevant? Law? Death? Murder? Jury duty? Would you find it: fun? Interesting? Educational? Exciting?
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby wolfier » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:41 am

Is the death of non-human life relevant? (yes I read the hints)
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby irishelk » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:23 am

GalFisk

Can you choose to do it? No. Do most people want to do it? No. Crime relevant? Law? Yes... Death? Murder? Possibly... Jury duty? Yes! Would you find it: fun? Interesting? Educational? Exciting? Yes to all...maybe not quite 'fun,' but, you know...


wolfier

Is the death of non-human life relevant? (yes I read the hints) No.
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby wolfier » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:45 pm

wow, nice jump, GalFisk...
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby irishelk » Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:45 pm

I know! I thought I was being oblique... lol
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby jumpingjacks » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:02 pm

I'd love to do jury duty too!

You said you are unlikely to be picked, and 'probably' won't do it etc - does this mean you are not ineligible, just less likely to be chosen?
The someone who made this happen - a politician? lawyer?
Is your health relevant? Physical? Mental?
Are you running a campaign? Starting a petition? Drawing attention to the problem? Carrying out non-violent direct action?
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby irishelk » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:20 pm

jumpingjacks

I'd love to do jury duty too! I know! I have just once, years ago, for a very dry civil case, but...more details after the $p0i1. ^^

You said you are unlikely to be picked, and 'probably' won't do it etc - does this mean you are not ineligible, just less likely to be chosen? Correct.
The someone who made this happen - a politician? lawyer? This, largely irr.
Is your health relevant? No. Physical? Mental?
Are you running a campaign? No. Starting a petition? No. Drawing attention to the problem? Yes for SVV of "problem." Carrying out non-violent direct action? In my own minimal, low-energy way, yes.
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby jumpingjacks » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:00 pm

Is your previous experience sitting on a jury relevant?
Your home address relevant?
The other people you are trying to disqualify from jury duty - do they share the same circumstance that you do that makes jury duty unlikely for you? Or are you trying to disqualify people in general?
This circumstance / characteristic of yours - is it something that is difficult to delineate? Is your direct action something along the lines of - "If I'm not viewed as ideal for jury duty because of X, well, this other person could also be considered to be X, and this person too; in fact, everyone could fall into the category of X, which means no one can serve jury duty. So, lawmakers, you'd better rethink your decision to exclude people who are X, because otherwise we would have no jury."
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby jumpingjacks » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:02 pm

PS. Just imagine all of us LTPF-ers on a jury for a murder mystery trial... what an experience that would be :lol:
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby irishelk » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:03 pm

jumpingjacks

Is your previous experience sitting on a jury relevant? No.
Your home address relevant? No.
The other people you are trying to disqualify from jury duty - do they share the same circumstance that you do that makes jury duty unlikely for you? They do once I disqualify them. Or are you trying to disqualify people in general? Yesish.
This circumstance / characteristic of yours - is it something that is difficult to delineate? There is a definite dividing line, but it is not immediately obvious. Is your direct action something along the lines of - "If I'm not viewed as ideal for jury duty because of X, well, this other person could also be considered to be X, and this person too; in fact, everyone could fall into the category of X, which means no one can serve jury duty. So, lawmakers, you'd better rethink your decision to exclude people who are X, because otherwise we would have no jury." Yes, with the caveat the other person is not X until I disqualify them.


PS. Just imagine all of us LTPF-ers on a jury for a murder mystery trial... what an experience that would be :lol: Oh lord...maybe we could do a mock trial! I've tried to get one going before, but I couldn't garner enough interest, and that was in my true crime club, so...
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby jumpingjacks » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:11 pm

Is 'X' the circumstance of having been rejected for jury service for a particular trial? Does having been rejected from one case then make the person less likely to be called up for another, even if the reason for rejection the first time was specific to that case and shouldn't affect eligibility for other cases?
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby jumpingjacks » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:14 pm

Oh lord...maybe we could do a mock trial! I've tried to get one going before, but I couldn't garner enough interest, and that was in my true crime club, so...


I'd be up for it! It could be a new puzzle format :D
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby irishelk » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:34 pm

jumpingjacks

Is 'X' the circumstance of having been rejected for jury service for a particular trial? No. Does having been rejected from one case then make the person less likely to be called up for another, even if the reason for rejection the first time was specific to that case and shouldn't affect eligibility for other cases? Good thought, but no.


I'd be up for it! It could be a new puzzle format :D Hm, let me think about that...I did make up a fictional case, maybe it could be couched in LTPF forum format...
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby Balin » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:31 pm

I'd also love to serve on a jury - I've received summons a couple times, but both times I was informed the day before that I did not need to come in.

Is it relevant that jury summons are sent through the mail? P.O. boxes relevant?
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby irishelk » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:29 am

Balin

I'd also love to serve on a jury - I've received summons a couple times, but both times I was informed the day before that I did not need to come in. Aw, lame.


Is it relevant that jury summons are sent through the mail? No. P.O. boxes relevant? No.
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby GalFisk » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:30 am

Do you want to disqualify enough other people that it becomes a problem? That someone becomes aware of what is happening? Do you want a rule or law to be changed? Do the people you disqualify know you do so? Would they approve of it?
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby irishelk » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:00 pm

GalFisk

Do you want to disqualify enough other people that it becomes a problem? This would be nice, but it's not relevantly my reason for disqualifying them. That someone becomes aware of what is happening? I am making people aware of the issue, yes. Do you want a rule or law to be changed? No.
Do the people you disqualify know you do so? Not necessarily, though they might realize it. Would they approve of it? Irr.
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby jumpingjacks » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:06 pm

The people you disqualify - do you know them personally? acquainted with them in some way? Is some basic knowledge of the individual necessary for you to disqualify them?
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby irishelk » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:46 am

jumpingjacks

The people you disqualify - do you know them personally? Usually, yes. acquainted with them in some way? Yes. Is some basic knowledge of the individual necessary for you to disqualify them? No, but it likely would not occur with a total stranger.
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby gregoryuconn » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:12 am

Do you have a fascination with local crime? So you would already have knowledge about any criminal case about which you might be called to serve on a jury, and so they wouldn't let you on? And then you tell other people about the crimes, and if you tell enough people about all the crimes, they'll have to let some of you on because there won't be enough jurors otherwise? Or are you a lawyer/police officer/politician/some other profession nobody wants on a jury, and you're getting others into the field as well?

Jury nullification relevant? At least in the US, they won't let you on the jury if you so much as mention you've heard of it, but there are people who want to change that.
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby irishelk » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:39 pm

gregoryuconn

Do you have a fascination with local crime? So you would already have knowledge about any criminal case about which you might be called to serve on a jury, and so they wouldn't let you on? And then you tell other people about the crimes, and if you tell enough people about all the crimes, they'll have to let some of you on because there won't be enough jurors otherwise? No, but good guess and OTRT-ish.
Or are you a lawyer/police officer/politician/some other profession nobody wants on a jury, and you're getting others into the field as well? No.

Jury nullification relevant? At least in the US, they won't let you on the jury if you so much as mention you've heard of it, but there are people who want to change that. YES!
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby jumpingjacks » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:42 pm

Wow, I never knew that! So they won't let you be a juror if you actually know your rights as a juror? That seems... very strange, to say the least. Good on you for trying to change it!
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby jumpingjacks » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:46 pm

Are you trying to disqualify the LTPF then? =P
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby gregoryuconn » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:39 am

Do you support jury nullification? So of course they'll never let you on the jury?
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear

Postby irishelk » Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:08 pm

Y'all have got it, nice work!

****************************SPOILER

The "someone" is the journalist who introduced me to the concept of jury nullification: that even if a jury thinks a defendant is guilty, there is nothing stopping them from acquitting if they believe the law is unfair or the punishment is too harsh.

I have always wanted to be on the jury of a major criminal case because I find them interesting, but knowing this information probably puts me out of the running; in the jury selection process, it is common for the prosecutor to ask if any potential jurors are familiar with the concept of jury nullification, and dismiss those people then and there**.

However, if I and others make the concept common enough knowledge, prosecutors will have to give up this strategy, as most of their pool would be familiar with it and they can only peremptorily challenge a couple of jurors. Thus, I hereby infect the LTPF with the knowledge--go forth and spread it.


**And as an interesting(?) side note, prosecuting attorneys are unlikely to ask anything more than "are you familiar with it," because they don't want to introduce the idea themselves. It's such a simple concept once you hear about it, and it's so hard to prove whether a jury nullified or not (unless they admit to it, which they likely will not, as it can be grounds for a mistrial), that the American justice system has an almost superstitious terror of discussing it. Radiolab has a great episode about that.
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear {NULLIFIED}

Postby jumpingjacks » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:46 pm

Thanks for the puzzle, this is so interesting and I never knew any of it. Going to have to look into it more now...
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear {NULLIFIED}

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:10 am

This is fascinating irishelk! I wish I had seen this puzzle before now.

Out of interest, what is to stop anyone from saying beforehand that they don't know what J.N. is, but then 'infecting' the jury with the knowledge during the deliberation?
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear {NULLIFIED}

Postby irishelk » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:49 pm

Glad you enjoyed!

There is indeed the option to lie at any point in the process...but I believe that potential jurors being interviewed are under oath. So, if anyone could prove you were lying when you said you didn't know about j.n., you could face jail time. Unlikely that they would bother, but it's a risk.
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear {NULLIFIED}

Postby gregoryuconn » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:23 am

At least in the United States, nullification is not grounds for a mistrial. Due to double jeopardy, unless there was misconduct by the defendant, like bribing or intimidating a juror into acquitting, you can never have a retrial after a not guilty verdict. Even in cases where a juror was bribed to vote not guilty but the authorities can't prove the defendant knew about it or was involved, getting a retrial can be difficult (though you'd still prosecute both the juror and whoever bribed them.) In fact, American jurors frequently invoked nullification in the mid-1800s to acquit people charged with abetting escaped slaves under the Fugitive Slace Act, and these acquittals were all upheld.
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Re: [IrishElk] Primal Fear {NULLIFIED}

Postby irishelk » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:53 pm

Interesting, gregoryuconn--perhaps I used the wrong term. In the example case I heard, a judge intervened while the case was in progress. Maybe that's different than a "mistrial." I do remember that the prosecution was eventually forced to argue the same case again, at great expense, so I assume that's what they're trying to avoid.
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