[invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

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[invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:18 pm

An octogenarian billionaire offers to sell you a magic bottle for the price of 10 Zenni.
There are three things you should know:-
1) There is a genie inside who will grant you as many wishes as you want.
2) If you still have the bottle when you die then you will go to Hell, which is a real place. If you sell the bottle you must be truthful about this, or the genie will return the bottle to you.
3) There is a third thing.

Should you buy the bottle?

[FSEI - IM spoiler]
Last edited by invisiblemimsy on Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby Earnest » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:40 pm

Relevant that the man is 80? Had the man relevantly owned the bottle before selling it? So it is not possible that he wished to sell you the bottle and then that the one to which he sold the bottle die without telling you right? Did he know the third thing? Can he omit/not tell the truth? Tell part of it? Can he have expressed the wish to hace additional eishes after having sold the bottle?

The third thing...did he know what it is? Are we supposed to discover it? Is it in contradiction with the first two laws? Can it contradict them? Can it be used to contraduct them?

Need to leave but I like this one!
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:47 pm

Earnest wrote:Relevant that the man is 80? Just that he's very old and will likely die soon... hence he wants to get rid of the bottle. Had the man relevantly owned the bottle before selling it? Yes, it's currently his bottle. So it is not possible that he wished to sell you the bottle and then that the one to which he sold the bottle die without telling you right? Sorry Earnest, I don't understand what you mean by this. Did he know the third thing? Yes Can he omit/not tell the truth? He doesn't have to tell you what the third thing is - just that there is a third thing. But no - he's not allowed to lie about it. Tell part of it? He could tell you all or part the third thing if he wanted to. But he chooses not to. Can he have expressed the wish to hace additional eishes after having sold the bottle? After he sells the bottle, he can't have any more wishes at all.

The third thing...did he know what it is? Yes. The genie told him after he bought the bottle. Are we supposed to discover it? Well, you could gamble and buy the bottle without knowing if you like. Is it in contradiction with the first two laws? No Can it contradict them? Can it be used to contraduct them? No.

Need to leave but I like this one!
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby jumpingjacks » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:04 pm

Is our aim to discover some logical reasoning which would enable us to decide whether we should buy the bottle or not?
Can we ask questions about the third thing from you? Or from the old man? Is this a little like a lateral adventure? Can we ask him when he first bought the bottle?
Can I say, "No, don't buy the bottle"? What happens then?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:12 pm

jumpingjacks wrote:Is our aim to discover some logical reasoning which would enable us to decide whether we should buy the bottle or not? yes
Can we ask questions about the third thing from you? Yes, because... Or from the old man? No, he won't tell you Is this a little like a lateral adventure? yes Can we ask him when he first bought the bottle? yes... he'll tell you some things I guess.
Can I say, "No, don't buy the bottle"? What happens then?You can if you want to, but then you're effectively out of this puzzle.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby jumpingjacks » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:23 pm

Yessss I love lateral adventures!!! Ok, let's go ahead and interrogate this old man. I'm assuming that, adventure-style, we can ask any sort of question and are not restricted to yes/no questions, but let me know if this is not the case.

What is the third thing? (no harm trying...)
When did you purchase this bottle? What were the circumstances surrounding that? Can you tell me anything about the previous owner of this bottle, the one you bought it from? How old was he?
Have you had a good life? Are you glad that you bought the bottle? Is the genie a good genie, would you say?
Why are you being so weird about this 'third thing'?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:59 pm

jumpingjacks wrote:Yessss I love lateral adventures!!! Ok, let's go ahead and interrogate this old man. I'm assuming that, adventure-style, we can ask any sort of question and are not restricted to yes/no questions, but let me know if this is not the case.

OK, I'll assume you're now interrogating the old man.

What is the third thing? (no harm trying...) I am sorry, I cannot say.
When did you purchase this bottle? When I was five and forty, there or abouts.
What were the circumstances surrounding that? I was a poor man still wanting of a wife. Can you tell me anything about the previous owner of this bottle, the one you bought it from? I happened upon her on a ship. How old was he? She looked very young, and yet she had the demeanor of someone much older.
Have you had a good life? Very much, I should say! Are you glad that you bought the bottle? Ah, well... in the most, yes. Is the genie a good genie, would you say? I do not think he knows himself!
Why are you being so weird about this 'third thing'? I am not at liberty to say.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby jumpingjacks » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:51 pm

Are there any restrictions on the wishes you can make? Could you, for instance, wish to never die?
When the genie first told you what the third thing was, how did you feel?
Did the bottle's previous owner also act cagey about the third thing?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:39 am

jumpingjacks wrote:Are there any restrictions on the wishes you can make? Could you, for instance, wish to never die? You could, but in that instance, the genie's powers would run aground.
I cannot think of others for now... but you may suggest some.

When the genie first told you what the third thing was, how did you feel? I knew that soon I would be in possession a beautiful wife! The most lovely girl in the land! So the genie's words were of no consequence.
Did the bottle's previous owner also act cagey about the third thing? It would not have mattered to me if she had.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby Earnest » Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:52 am

Aside: is Dragon Ball relevant?
So let's make some order if possible:

Questions related to point 1): As many wishes = could the owner also ask to sell the bottle as a wish? To have the possibility to sell the bottle telling a lie? To act in contrast with one of the laws or find a way to bend the rules still acting according to them (e.g. he wishes to sell the bottle telling the truth to the other but that in case a huge noise occurs he wishes that the other buys the bottle without asking to repeat the truth again; or e.g. could he wish that the buyer would have not made questions)? could he wish something that forces other people to do something? Can he ask to avoid some rule?

Questions related to point 2): had someone ever gone to Hell? When someone goes to Hell does he/she own the bottle? If so, can he/she ask to go to Heaven or other wishes?

Questions related to point 3): did the owner actually know the third thing? Is the owner forced to answer truthfully also to questions asked by the buyer? If so, if the owner is forced to tell the buyer that there is a third thing, can we assume that the buyer asked the owner what the third thing was? And again, if so can we ask what the owner replied to the buyer being a lateral adventure (in case of a yes, please could you answer?)? Does the genie/the rules force him not to tell about the third thing?

Various questions: is the third thing something in contrast with 1) and 2) ? That can undermine them? Is it something related to the genie? To the bottle? To the rules? To the buyer? To the owner? To the way in which the bottle is sold? Does the third thing consists in saying that there is a third thing so to "test" the buyer? If not, is there a way to discover what the third thing is? For instance, can the buyer ask the seller to wish something before buying the bottle? If so maybe he could ask to reveal the third thing? Or he could ask the seller to wish that once the bottle has been sold, the third thing would have been revealed to him (the buyer) and he himself was free to sell the bottle back to the previous owner.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:44 am

Earnest wrote:Aside: is Dragon Ball relevant? No
So let's make some order if possible:

Questions related to point 1): As many wishes = could the owner also ask to sell the bottle as a wish? The old man speaks. No, I have tried, but nothing came of it. I think the next owner must have free will - to choose to buy, or not, as the case may be. To have the possibility to sell the bottle telling a lie? No, for the same reason. To act in contrast with one of the laws or find a way to bend the rules still acting according to them (e.g. he wishes to sell the bottle telling the truth to the other but that in case a huge noise occurs he wishes that the other buys the bottle without asking to repeat the truth again; or e.g. could he wish that the buyer would have not made questions)? could he wish something that forces other people to do something? Can he ask to avoid some rule? No, I would not wish to cheat or deceive, but in any case, I cannot break the laws which govern the bottle.

Questions related to point 2): had someone ever gone to Hell? The woman who sold me the bottle had not been to hell. I do not know about those before her. When someone goes to Hell does he/she own the bottle? If that person still owns the bottle when they die, they go to Hell. As to whether the bottle remains in Hell or returns to the living world, I have no way to tell, but you could ask the Genie. He is the fount of all knowledge.
If so, can he/she ask to go to Heaven or other wishes? I do not know, but I think it unlikely.

Questions related to point 3): did the owner actually know the third thing? I know it now, but not before I bought the bottle. Is the owner forced to answer truthfully also to questions asked by the buyer? Yes If so, if the owner is forced to tell the buyer that there is a third thing, Indeed he is... can we assume that the buyer asked the owner what the third thing was? Yes, I did do so, to no avail. And again, if so can we ask what the owner replied to the buyer being a lateral adventure (in case of a yes, please could you answer?) She told me the same as I am telling you now. Does the genie/the rules force him not to tell about the third thing? As to that, I do not know. I could summon him, and he could tell you himself?

Various questions: is the third thing something in contrast with 1) and 2) ? That can undermine them? No. Is it something related to the genie? No.
To the bottle? Yes To the rules? Yes To the buyer? It affects the buyer To the owner? It affects the owner. To the way in which the bottle is sold? yes Does the third thing consists in saying that there is a third thing so to "test" the buyer? no If not, is there a way to discover what the third thing is? Yes. For instance, can the buyer ask the seller to wish something before buying the bottle? By all means, I shall be happy to demonstrate the bottle to you! What would you have me do with it? If so maybe he could ask to reveal the third thing? Now, you already know I am not at liberty. Or he could ask the seller to wish that once the bottle has been sold, the third thing would have been revealed to him (the buyer) Well,
as soon as you are the owner of the bottle, the genie will tell you the third thing.
and he himself was free to sell the bottle back to the previous owner. Most certainly,
you are free to sell the bottle back to a previous owner - myself or any of the others, if they are still alive. But as to whether I would buy it back from you, ah well, that is another thing entirely.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby Earnest » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:58 am

Ok then..if you are not allowed to tell me lies about the bottle and you know the third thing but cannot say it, would you suggest me to buy the bottle without knowing the third thing? If so would you do it just to avoid to go to Hell or also because you think I could benefit from it?

Can I please ask something to the genie?
Genie, could you answer me the questions above please? Is the third thing something that happens as soon as I have bought the bottle? After years? It depends? Is the price relevant?
So genie, is there a way I could know the third thing without being the owner? If so, actual owner could you express the wish to discover the way? If the genie does not tell you, could you please tell me if the third thing influenced a lot your life? If it could influence mine? If it does apply wheather I accept the bottle by saying "yes I would like to buy the bottle"? If it applies anyway? What happens if the rules are broken? I add a friend who want yo suicide...can I ask him to first buy the bottle and then tell me the third thing before committing suicide?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby wolfier » Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:10 pm

awesome.

questions to invisibiemimsy:
Are you playing the role of the genie?
Zenni - I heard about this currency somewhere in video games and animes. Is it significant?
Would a person generally think the Third Thing as a caveat, a bonus, or neutral? Or is it an empty trick to make a buyer hesitate?
Does the young woman who acted old (and weak?) have anything to do with the Third Thing?
Is the nature of Hell (vs Heaven) relevant to solving this puzzle?

questions to the old man:
Are you also forced to be truthful about the existence of the Third Thing?
If you summon the genie and demonstrate it, would it imply that I have said Yes?
Do you only appear very old, or are you actually very old?
Would an owner die soon after selling the bottle?
Can you summon previous owners of the bottle and interrogate THEM instead? (Resurrect them if they're dead?)
Have you had a preview of what hell is like?
Is there a minimum number of wishes you have to make?
Is there a particular type of wishes you have to make/not make?
Is the genie in the bottle the same genie that was in the bottle when the previous owner had it? (I'm thinking along the line something like, if you sell the bottle, when you die instead of going to Hell, you become the genie)
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:45 pm

Hey everyone, I'm going to ditch the colours 'cos I was painting myself into a corner! Bear with me...
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:07 pm

Earnest wrote:Ok then..if you are not allowed to tell me lies about the bottle and you know the third thing but cannot say it, would you suggest me to buy the bottle without knowing the third thing? If so would you do it just to avoid to go to Hell or also because you think I could benefit from it?

OLD MAN:
You must make your own decision, of course. I cannot tell you the rules of the bottle because the rules of the bottle say I cannot tell you the rules. Of the bottle. :lol:


Can I please ask something to the genie?

OLD MAN passes you the bottle. You rub the bottle.
There is a fizzing sound and a satisfying *pop* as the cork flies out closely followed by the genie...

GENIE:
Hello, my name is MOONQIM THE TERRIFIC!!! and I will be your genie for today. Excuse me while I adjust my top, these straps are chafing something rotten. Have you got any spare suncream? Sorry I’ve forgotten your question…

OLD MAN:
Who are you and what are you doing in my bottle?

GENIE, after a bit of rummaging, hoiks out her smartphone and starts scrolling...
Hold on Mr... Here we are... Nigel the Reliable's Old Man is... Mr Keel. Sorry Mr Keel. Nigel sent me while he has his corns seen to.


Is the third thing something that happens as soon as I have bought the bottle?
No

After years?
Perhaps...
It depends?
Yes.
Is the price relevant?
Yes, it's crucial.
So genie, is there a way I could know the third thing without being the owner?
Hmmm... I'm not sure. Nigel The Reliable would know but he's not back till next Friday.
If so, actual owner could you express the wish to discover the way?
Mr Keel knows but he's not allowed to say, are you Love? Maybe he'll let you have a wish or three with me if you ask him nicely?

If the genie does not tell you, could you please tell me if the third thing influenced a lot your life? If it could influence mine?
OLD MAN:
The bottle changed everything! I have had everything I wished for. I tried to ignore the third thing during my life, but I knew it was there. Now that I am old I must be careful about it so I do not end up in Hell.


If it does apply wheather I accept the bottle by saying "yes I would like to buy the bottle"? If it applies anyway?
OLD MAN:
It would apply once we have exchanged the 10 Zenni for the bottle.


What happens if the rules are broken?
OLD MAN:
The rules are the rules.

GENIE:
Go directly to Hell, do not pass Go do not collect £200. Or in this case, 10 Zenni.


I add a friend who want yo suicide...can I ask him to first buy the bottle and then tell me the third thing before committing suicide?
OLD MAN:
Once your poor friend has bought the bottle, he will not be allowed to tell you the third thing. If he commits suicide, as with any other means of death, he will go to hell if he still has the bottle.
If you want to buy the bottle from him before he dies, you will still be in the situation you are in now...
...Besides, if I were him my first wish would be to get rid of the suicidal thoughts.
The best tip I can give you is to narrow it down with small, precise questions, and not too many at once!


Is the third thing something that happens as soon as I have bought the bottle? After years? It depends? Is the price relevant?

It applies as soon as the bottle is yours. The price is connected. It will definitely affect you at some point, but when and how is up to you.


So genie, is there a way I could know the third thing without being the owner?
The only way would be to give the correct answer to the genie. At that point, you would still have to apply reasoning to decide whether you should still buy the bottle.

If so, actual owner could you express the wish to discover the way? If the genie does not tell you, could you please tell me if the third thing influenced a lot your life?
As I have said, it did not affect my life much because I paid no mind to it until lately.

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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:10 pm

Please guys, from now on can we have shorter posts? Say, 3-4 questions each post, without multiple subclauses? :D
Thanks
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby Earnest » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:53 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: sooorry
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:54 pm

wolfier wrote:awesome.

questions to invisibiemimsy:
Are you playing the role of the genie?
Assume yes, but irrel.

Zenni - I heard about this currency somewhere in video games and animes. Is it significant? Not the name of it...

Would a person generally think the Third Thing as a caveat, a bonus, or neutral? A caveat. Or is it an empty trick to make a buyer hesitate? No, it has legs. Explore.

Does the young woman who acted old (and weak?) have anything to do with the Third Thing? She was actually an old woman with not long to live. One of her wishes had been to be perpetually young. You can see why that wouldn't work... As a genie, Nigel did his best.

Is the nature of Hell (vs Heaven) relevant to solving this puzzle? Hell is a real place which really exists for real. There is a genie heaven. Irrel.

questions to the old man:
Are you also forced to be truthful about the existence of the Third Thing? Yes, insofar as I can talk about it.
If you summon the genie and demonstrate it, would it imply that I have said Yes? Sorry, I don't understand your question.

Do you only appear very old, or are you actually very old? I am actually very old.
Would an owner die soon after selling the bottle? Not necessarily. The sale of the bottle and the death of the seller are not directly linked

Can you summon previous owners of the bottle and interrogate THEM instead? (Resurrect them if they're dead?) Hmmm... now that is an interesting idea. No/irrel.
Have you had a preview of what hell is like? No/irrel

Is there a minimum number of wishes you have to make? You can make as many or as few as you like.
Is there a particular type of wishes you have to make/not make? If you make wishes which are proscribed or illogical, they don't work. There is no harm in trying. Someone once told me to say "XYZZY" as I rubbed the bottle, but nothing happened.

Is the genie in the bottle the same genie that was in the bottle when the previous owner had it?
I don't know. You could ask the genie. (I'm thinking along the line something like, if you sell the bottle, when you die instead of going to Hell, you become the genie) That is an interesting concept. You could ask the genie.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:55 pm

Earnest wrote::lol: :lol: :lol: sooorry


No worries!
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby Earnest » Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:11 pm

Does the bottle change owner when passing from the hand of the owner to the hand of someone else? Could it be free?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby biograd » Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:21 pm

So I assume the penalty for breaking the third rule (including revealing the third rule, which seems to be prohibited by the rule) is the same as for breaking the first, i.e. going to Hell? though in this case whether or not in possession of the bottle at the time of death?

Does the third rule relate to the current sale price of the bottle? to the price for which it was sold before? both (for example, "you must sell the bottle for more than you paid for it")?

By the way, how much, relatively speaking, is 10 Zinni? In other words, in the world where this currency exists, could the average person afford to pay 10 Zinni? 100? 1000?

I would assume that the wish to be wealthy is valid? such that if you spend your life's fortune on the bottle, you could immediately make it back (with the caveat, of course, that you can't spend more than you own and go into debt when purchasing)?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:24 pm

Earnest wrote:Does the bottle change owner when passing from the hand of the owner to the hand of someone else?
The bottle changes owner once the money is in the old owner's hand AND the bottle is in the new owner's hand.

Could it be free?
No.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:09 pm

biograd wrote:So I assume the penalty for breaking the third rule (including revealing the third rule, which seems to be prohibited by the rule) ... You do not talk about Fight Club :) ...is the same as for breaking the first, i.e. going to Hell? Yes though in this case whether or not in possession of the bottle at the time of death?
Hmmm... I'll try to restate it more clearly.
OK, so:
a) If you reveal the 3rd rule, you go to Hell.
b) If you don't sell the bottle before you die, you go to Hell.
c) If you are unable to follow the 3rd rule, you go to Hell.
d) If you are unable to follow the 3rd rule, it follows that you will have the bottle with you when you go to Hell.


Does the third rule relate to the current sale price of the bottle? to the price for which it was sold before? both yes (for example, "you must sell the bottle for more than you paid for it")? but not this.

By the way, how much, relatively speaking, is 10 Zinni? not very much. Assume it's the smallest coin. In other words, in the world where this currency exists, could the average person afford to pay 10 Zinni? 100? 1000? Hmmm... let's say 10 Zinni would buy a poor person food for 10 days.

I would assume that the wish to be wealthy is valid? Yes such that if you spend your life's fortune on the bottle, you could immediately make it back yes (with the caveat, of course, that you can't spend more than you own and go into debt when purchasing)?correct, explore
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:25 pm

By the way, I'm really surprised no one has asked the Genie for any wishes yet. Your very own LTPF Genie. That can't come around very often.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby Earnest » Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:37 pm

Genie I would like to be the smartest in the world! So that I can receal the puzzle solution ;p

Is the difference in price between price of the last exchange (previous owner to actual owner) and the next one (actual owner to future possible owner) relevant? More than the last exchange? Less? An equal price? Numbers and letters involved?

It will definitely affect you at some point, but when and how is up to you. --> when I want to sell the bottle?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:50 pm

Earnest wrote:Genie I would like to be the smartest in the world! So that I can receal the puzzle solution ;p
Genie
OK Earnest, stand still a minute and concentrate .................................
..................There you go!
moon unit.jpg
moon unit.jpg (3.79 KiB) Viewed 2506 times

A slight ripple crosses your vision as the moon unit slowly and subtly changes the past. You feel your personality change almost completely as the moon unit disappears in a puff of causality.


Is the difference in price between price of the last exchange (previous owner to actual owner) and the next one (actual owner to future possible owner) relevant Yesish
More than the last exchange? No Less? This An equal price? No Numbers and letters involved? Not sure what you mean by this?

It will definitely affect you at some point, but when and how is up to you. --> when I want to sell the bottle? yes
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby Earnest » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:49 am

Thanks genie!!!...if you want to make me rich and happy for my entire life it would be also fine for me :))

By letters and number I meant wheather for instance there were rules involving the fact that the next price should contain less letters than the previous one? E.g. the women sold him the bottle for four zenni with four having 4 letters, so that the man is forced to sell the bottle at a number containing 3 letters...ten indeed. If that's the logic I would not buy the bottle since there are no numbers woth 2 letters I guess...

Less in terms of amount? If so of a specific amount? Less in terms of letters (see above please)? Anyway, old man, can we please know how much did you spend to buy the bottle from the previous owner? Thanks!!!
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:22 am

Earnest wrote:Thanks genie!!!...if you want to make me rich and happy for my entire life it would be also fine for me :))
:lol:

By letters and number I meant wheather for instance there were rules involving the fact that the next price should contain less letters than the previous one? E.g. the women sold him the bottle for four zenni with four having 4 letters, so that the man is forced to sell the bottle at a number containing 3 letters...ten indeed. If that's the logic I would not buy the bottle since there are no numbers woth 2 letters I guess...

Great logic, and OTRT.

Less in terms of amount? yes If so of a specific amount? no but... Less in terms of letters (see above please)? No Anyway, old man, can we please know how much did you spend to buy the bottle from the previous owner? 10 Zenni Thanks!!!
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby jumpingjacks » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:07 am

Woah woah woah woah... you bought it for 10 Zenni, and now you're selling it for 10 Zenni? Aren't you supposed to sell it for less than what you bought it for? *narrows eyes suspiciously* Has the Zenni currency fallen since the time you bought it? Am I allowed to haggle? How about I buy it for 9 Zenni? 8? 7? 6? 5? 4? 3? 2? 1?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby Earnest » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:26 am

Aside: can it happen that someone wishes to be immortal so that he/she does not need to sell the bottle? What happens in that case (question to genie)?

So...don't know if my reasonament is correct anyway...if one is willing to sell the bottle, generally he/she wants to sell it at an old age before dying and to mantain a price that is as low as possible right? (It is simpler to get rid of it without risking of dying being the owner)
If the above is correct, does the third rule concern a minimum price (e.g. an high one) to which the bottle must be sold? 10 Zenni?

Could the previous owner have sold it also for 11 Zenni?
Is the fact that Ten Zenni has 3 "n" and 2 "e" relevant (e.g. Keel has 2 e) ? Your (of the old man) and the previous owner's name relevant? Can you please tell me both again?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby wwhere » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:01 pm

Questions for the old man: If I buy the bottle, in your truthful opinion, will I be able to sell the bottle again latter to some other person? Will I be able to set the price for the bottle to be whatever I want? Will I be able to barter the bottle away instead of selling it (exchange it for a chicken, for example)? To how many people have you offered to sell the bottle before me?
I heard a story once about a bottle very much like this one, where each time the bottle was sold, it had to be sold for less than value than the last time. Is this the case here? If so, I could expect to sell the bottle for 9-1 zennies, right? Or maybe sell it for one zandoran dollar, that coin that just got hyperinflated recently?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby wolfier » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:32 pm

Is there a limit on how many rejections you get when you try to sell the bottle? (say if you try to sell it to 3 persons and they all say no, you go to hell) Must the price you sell it for higher than the price you got it from? (you got it for 10 Zennis you must sell it at 20)
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:28 pm

jumpingjacks wrote:Woah woah woah woah... you bought it for 10 Zenni, and now you're selling it for 10 Zenni? Oh sorry! I dropped the ball there. No. I did buy it for 10 Zenny,
and now I'm selling it for less.
Aren't you supposed to sell it for less than what you bought it for? *narrows eyes suspiciously* Yes. Has the Zenni currency fallen since the time you bought it? No. Am I allowed to haggle? If you want, but... How about I buy it for 9 Zenni? 8? 7? 6? 5? 4? 3? 2? 1? Any of those prices would be acceptable, because I want to get rid of the bottle before I die. I'm a rich man anyway, so the money itself is irrelevant to me.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:56 pm

Earnest wrote:Aside: can it happen that someone wishes to be immortal so that he/she does not need to sell the bottle? What happens in that case (question to genie)?

Genie
That's one of the wishes I can't grant, sorry. If it were possible, Mr Keel here would have wished to be immortal himself.

So...don't know if my reasonament is correct anyway...if one is willing to sell the bottle, generally he/she wants to sell it at an old age before dying
It would be a good idea if he or she didn't leave it so late, to be honest, in case he/she died early.

and to mantain a price that is as low as possible right?
Well, the price is already pretty low. I wonder what the previous owners did?
(It is simpler to get rid of it without risking of dying being the owner)
Well, that is something you could ponder on.
If the above is correct, does the third rule concern a minimum price (e.g. an high one) to which the bottle must be sold? 10 Zenni?
OTRT.
It's currently available at 9 Zenni, since he bought it for 10.


Could the previous owner have sold it also for 11 Zenni? They could have done, in theory. Do you want me to check in my smartphone what price it was at when Mr Keel bought it?
Is the fact that Ten Zenni has 3 "n" and 2 "e" relevant (e.g. Keel has 2 e) ? No, BUWT. Your (of the old man) and the previous owner's name relevant?
My name is Moonqim the Terrific!!! That's with 3 exclamation marks. None of our names are relevant.
Can you please tell me both again? Do you want me to look up her name in my smartphone?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:13 pm

wwhere wrote:Questions for the old man: If I buy the bottle, in your truthful opinion, will I be able to sell the bottle again latter to some other person?
I don't think it would be a good idea for me to influence your decision.
Will I be able to set the price for the bottle to be whatever I want?
Yes, so long as it is 9 Zenni or less. Or you could see what someone will offer you.
Will I be able to barter the bottle away instead of selling it (exchange it for a chicken, for example)? No, it has to be sold for cash. If you want chickens, you could buy as many as you want before you pass on the bottle.
To how many people have you offered to sell the bottle before me?
You were the first person I thought of, naturally :-D
I heard a story once about a bottle very much like this one, where each time the bottle was sold, it had to be sold for less than value than the last time. Is this the case here?
YES, exactly so. In which case, I wonder what the implications of that would be...
If so, I could expect to sell the bottle for 9-1 zennies, right?
You could...
Or maybe sell it for one zandoran dollar, that coin that just got hyperinflated recently?
I think, perhaps, that I read that story too, many years ago...
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:19 pm

wolfier wrote:Is there a limit on how many rejections you get when you try to sell the bottle? No. (say if you try to sell it to 3 persons and they all say no, you go to hell) You may keep on trying to sell it until you give up or die. Must the price you sell it for higher than the price you got it from? (you got it for 10 Zennis you must sell it at 20)No, the reverse is true. I must sell it for 9 Zennies or less.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby wolfier » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:26 pm

Is it reasonable to expect then, at the very beginning, the bottle cost a lot more than 10 Zennis?

Is the power of the genie in any way related to the amount of money for which it is bought?

After many owners, the price dwindled to 9 Zennis, so this is basically the third thing?

These previous owners must all have sold the bottle successfully thus avoided going to Hell?

When the price goes to 0 can it be resold? Or can the selling price become negative?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:02 pm

wolfier wrote:Is it reasonable to expect then, at the very beginning, the bottle cost a lot more than 10 Zennis? Yes. I have no idea of the original price though.

Is the power of the genie in any way related to the amount of money for which it is bought? No.

After many owners, the price dwindled to 9 Zennis, so this is basically the third thing?
The third thing is that you can only sell the bottle for less than you paid for it, as discussed above. But you will need to work out the implications of that, so that you can decide whether you should buy the bottle.

These previous owners must all have sold the bottle successfully thus avoided going to Hell? I have speculated about this myself. I wonder what happens to the bottle if its owner dies before selling it, and therefore goes to Hell?

When the price goes to 0 can it be resold? The price would never get to zero. Or can the selling price become negative? You mean, I give you the bottle and some money as well? How would that be selling it?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby Earnest » Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:27 am

But...if you (old man) payed for the bottle 10 Zennies and you are now selling it for 10 Zennies...aren't you breaking the rule?
Moreover...what happens if two people knowing the third rule (one can discover it as we did), decide to sell the bottle one to the other until the price reaches the 1 Zeni? The person buying the bottle at 1 Zeni can sell it back at a lower price (0.99 Zeni?...) or the loop repeats? If so, what is the highest price?

Anyway...possible implications of third rule...

1) people could think that at that low price the bottle would not do what the owner promises
2) people do not know what the previous owner has wished (he could have wished something to happen as soon as the sell takes place)
3) the lower the price the lower the wishes (not in number but in terms of "possible wishes") the genie can satisfy?
4) it is possible to determine all implications without knowing something else relevant about what happens the lower the price? (E.g. the lower the price the shorter the life of the owner...)
5) is it possible to give a change in Zeni? Also for the selling of the bottle? If not, are there coins that allow the next buyer to pay 9 Zeni? (Or there exists just cash Zeni made of 5 and/or 10 Zeni so that it is not possible to precisely pay 9 Zeni without having a change?)
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:58 am

Earnest wrote:But...if you (old man) payed for the bottle 10 Zennies and you are now selling it for 10 Zennies...aren't you breaking the rule?no, the price is now 9 Zenni or less

Moreover...what happens if two people knowing the third rule (one can discover it as we did), decide to sell the bottle one to the other until the price reaches the 1 Zeni? This would work. However, the person who paid 1 Zenni would go to hell.

The person buying the bottle at 1 Zeni can sell it back at a lower price (0.99 Zeni?...) No. Zenni is the lowest value coin. or the loop repeats? noIf so, what is the highest price?9 Zenni at this stage.

Anyway...possible implications of third rule...

1) people could think that at that low price the bottle would not do what the owner promises IIndeed they could. But Mr Keel could demonstrate it to them.
2) people do not know what the previous owner has wished (he could have wished something to happen as soon as the sell takes place) that won’t work.
3) the lower the price the lower the wishes (not in number but in terms of "possible wishes") the genie can satisfy? No. The genie will grant as many wishes as you like, subject to the rules.
4) it is possible to determine all implications without knowing something else relevant about what happens the lower the price? (E.g. the lower the price the shorter the life of the owner...) I think you have enough information to work out the logic by now. I could have missed something but I think that’s true. The example you give is not true. A person will live as long as they live regardless, like all of us.
5) is it possible to give a change in Zeni? Also for the selling of the bottle? No or NR. If not, are there coins that allow the next buyer to pay 9 Zenni? Yes, 9 Zenni coins. (Or there exists just cash Zeni made of 5 and/or 10 Zeni so that it is not possible to precisely pay 9 Zeni without having a change?)No.


Good questions!
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby wwhere » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:26 am

Have we always use zennies when selling? Or can we use another coin? If we can use another coin, can we sell the bottle as long as the current value of that other coin is lower than the equivalent in zennies? Let's say there is another coin called peseta, and that 1 zennie can be exchanged right now for 2 pesetas. Could I sell the bottle for 10 pesetas then, as its value would still be lower (5 zennies)?
If the response is right, I would say accept the bottle. If needed, you can always use wishes to manipulate other currencies until there is some currency with a value under the value of the zenni.

Oh, another very important question! What's the current legal status of the zenni? Is the state that coins zennis safe? Is it looking to change its currency (and deprive potentially the zennie of all value)?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby Balin » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:16 pm

I think I know this one - sending a PM
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby wolfier » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:20 pm

I also arrived at an answer...PM sent
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby Earnest » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:47 am

Are there many Zenni in the world? Only 9 left?
Do 10 zenni worth more than 9? Relevant what previous owners do with the gained Zennies? Could they buy the bottle back?

Are Zenni a problem at all? I mean...one could wish to have 8 Zennies, donate them to a possible buyer and ask him to buy the bottle right?

Suppose we buy the bottle...will we be able to sell it for 8 Zenni? If you cannot answer no prob. If not, because of lack of Zenni? Because of lack of people? Because of lack of buyers? Because 8 Zenni is a lot?
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:29 pm

wwhere wrote:Have we always use zennies when selling? Yes Or can we use another coin? Under normal circumstances, no... however... If we can use another coin, can we sell the bottle as long as the current value of that other coin is lower than the equivalent in zennies? We could... Let's say there is another coin called peseta, and that 1 zennie can be exchanged right now for 2 pesetas. Could I sell the bottle for 10 pesetas then, as its value would still be lower (5 zennies)? The lowest coin here is the zennie. However... I shall $poil soon and this is relevant.
If the response is right, I would say accept the bottle. If needed, you can always use wishes to manipulate other currencies until there is some currency with a value under the value of the zenni. This is a very interesting idea too. I'm not sure if manipulating currencies would be within the remit of the genie, but it's food for thought.

Oh, another very important question! What's the current legal status of the zenni? Is the state that coins zennis safe? Is it looking to change its currency (and deprive potentially the zennie of all value)? Assume the legal value is safe.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:34 pm

Earnest wrote:Are there many Zenni in the world? Only 9 left? No, there are plenty left
Do 10 zenni worth more than 9? yes Relevant what previous owners do with the gained Zennies? Could they buy the bottle back? In theory yes

Are Zenni a problem at all? I mean...one could wish to have 8 Zennies, donate them to a possible buyer and ask him to buy the bottle right? [b He would still have to address the question: "Should I buy the bottle". Red herring anyway I think.[/b]

Suppose we buy the bottle...will we be able to sell it for 8 Zenni? Yes, in theory If you cannot answer no prob. If not, because of lack of Zenni? Irrel Because of lack of people? Possibly Because of lack of buyers? Potential buyers, yes indeed Because 8 Zenni is a lot? The opposite, if anything.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:43 pm

***************UPDATE... WITH SPOILER TO FOLLOW IN NEXT POST**************

You are all pretty much there, with Wolfier and Biograd sending me the solution in the IM box.

Wolfier said: So, if all humans act logically like a computer and assuming nobody wants to go to Hell, it means that nobody would buy it for 1 Zennis. Thus, there'll be no buyer if you get it for 2 Zennis... knowing this, and assuming everyone acts logically, nobody would buy it for 3 Zennis too knowing that nobody will buy it for 2 Zennis. Thus, nobody would buy it for 4 Zennis, knowing nobody would buy it for 3 Zennis.........thus eventually, nobody would buy it for 8 Zennis. The answer is no then.


Biograd said:

As I gather, the third rule is "you must sell the bottle for a whole number of Zennis that is strictly less than the price for which you bought it, and is also not zero" (plus the part about not telling the rule--though I'm wondering now whether that's actually part of the rule--see below).

In this case, I reason as follows. Nobody, being smart and knowing the third rule, would buy it for one Zenni, because selling it for either zero Zennis (i.e. for free) or any positive number of Zennis both break the rule. Then someone who buys it for two Zennis has to sell it for one Zenni, but we already determined that anyone smart will reject that offer. Therefore, no smart person will buy it for two Zennis. Someone buying it for three Zennis has to sell it for either one or two Zennis, and since both of these will be turned down, he/she should in turn refuse to buy as well. Repeating this reasoning forever, there is no price for which it makes sense to buy the bottle, unless relying on the "greater fool theory".

Therefore, maybe it's not that telling the third rule itself will automatically doom one to Hell, but that any smart person realizes that revealing the the rule will ensure that any other smart person will refuse to buy the bottle, and therefore result in going to Hell.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:59 pm

**********************$POILER*********************

The third rule is that you can only buy the bottle for a lesser price than the price paid by the previous buyer. This means that, logically, there is no price at which it is safe to buy the bottle.
At 1 Zenni there is no lower price, at 2 Zenni no one will buy because they would not be able to sell at 1 Zenni, and so on.

However, if you rely on the 'greater fool theory', you might well get away with buying the bottle and then selling it again until it reaches a sufficiently low price to put off even the greatest fool. Evidently, that is what our Mr Keel did, since he seems like an otherwise intelligent chap.

There is another possibility which a couple of you touched upon: You could travel to another land where there is a lower value coin than the Zenni, and continue selling/buying there. This is what happened in the original story, "The Bottle Imp" by Robert Louis Stevenson. He also had his hero buy the bottle back in order to save his wife from going to hell.

Well done to everyone who took part and to Wolfier and Biograd for the solve!
:) :) :) :) :)
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle *[POPPED]*

Postby jumpingjacks » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:29 pm

Love the puzzle and the puzzle format!!
I'd definitely still buy the bottle though. The rewards outweigh the risks, and I think 9 zennies (selling for 8) is still a safe enough price that we'll find someone willing to buy it, even when they know the rule. And we have all the wishes of the genie to help us make that sale! We could use our wishes to make us so charming that no one can resist buying anything from us; we could wish to meet with some of the most reckless gamblers alive, or find someone so desperate to improve their lives that they wouldn't even bother too much to find out what the third rule is. Or indeed, we could wish to be able to make anyone fall madly in love with us, so that, like the husband in the story, they might buy it just to save us from a hellish end. =)
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle *[POPPED]*

Postby invisiblemimsy » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:45 pm

Yes, I like those suggestions, JJ, and thanks for the compliment :)

It also occurred to me that, since 9 Zenni would buy a pauper food for 9 days, we would be unlikely to find such a person with that amount. This would mean we could only appeal to richer folks, who are fewer in number, likely better educated, and more liable to understand the logical implications. They would also be able to debate with the seller and/or genie in order to establish the third rule.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle *[POPPED]*

Postby Jenny » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:40 am

I would buy it

*SPOILERS BELOW*

If only to wish Ace were alive and by my side

and my other loved ones too.
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Re: [invisiblemimsy] Genie in a Bottle *[POPPED]*

Postby invisiblemimsy » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:23 pm

I think I would too, Jenny. Imagine all the good you could do in the world. And then, due to good karma, maybe hell wouldn't be so bad.
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