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[LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:07 am
by LemonCurry
New year's resolution: host occasional LTPF puzzles again...

How does the clerk (HAF) in a German office make a frustrated client (HAM) on a very important appointment happy by sending him to kids' corner?

Based on a ROIMBT-story

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:20 am
by Doriana
kids' corner = a designated area for children within the office? with books? toys? colouring supplies? games?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:34 am
by LemonCurry
kids' corner = a designated area for children within the office? Yes
with books? toys? colouring supplies? Yes, others irrelevant games?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:59 am
by Doriana
Is the appointment related to finances? taxes? marriage? vehicles? registering a child? housing? permits of any sort? legal matters? passports? other documents?

Refugees relevant? immigrants?

Was the client frustrated before the appointment began? did he get frustrated during the appointment? If so, because the clerk couldn't fulfill his request? because the clerk misunderstood him? Is there a language barrier?

Does the man come to the appointment alone? If not, does he have another adult with him? a child?
Were any children already playing in the kids' corner? relevant?

Does the man draw something? colour in a drawing?
Paper relevant? crayons? pens? glue? scissors? stickers?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:29 am
by LemonCurry
Is the appointment related to finances? taxes? marriage? vehicles? registering a child? housing? permits of any sort? legal matters?
passports? This, no to rest other documents?

Refugees relevant? No immigrants? Yes

Was the client frustrated before the appointment began? No
did he get frustrated during the appointment? Yes
If so, because the clerk couldn't fulfill his request? Yes
because the clerk misunderstood him? Is there a language barrier? No and No

Does the man come to the appointment alone? irrel, assume Yes
If not, does he have another adult with him? a child?
Were any children already playing in the kids' corner? relevant? irrel

Does the man draw something? Yes colour in a drawing? No
Paper relevant? crayons? pens? glue? scissors? Stickers? Details are not relevant

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:12 pm
by Doriana
Is the man applying for a passport? renewing his passport? picking up his passport? picking up a passport for someone else?

Is the man German? If so, has he always been? Dual citizenship relevant?
Has he immigrated to Germany? Is he planning to emigrate?

Passport photos relevant? Wearing religious attire in passport photos relevant?

Could the clerk not fulfill the man's request because what he wanted was not permitted? not possible? ridiculous? Because the clerk didn't have the authority to fulfill it? Could someone higher up have fulfilled the request?
Had the man done something wrong? e.g. filled out a form the wrong way? Had he forgotten something?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:39 pm
by LemonCurry
Is the man applying for a passport? Yes(ish) renewing his passport? picking up his passport? picking up a passport for someone else? No to rest

Is the man German? Big YOPE
If so, has he always been? No Dual citizenship relevant? Yope, don't follow up on this
Has he immigrated to Germany? Yes Is he planning to emigrate? No

Passport photos relevant? Wearing religious attire in passport photos relevant? No and No

Could the clerk not fulfill the man's request because what he wanted was not permitted? Yes, no to rest
not possible? ridiculous? Because the clerk didn't have the authority to fulfill it? Could someone higher up have fulfilled the request?

Had the man done something wrong? e.g. filled out a form the wrong way? Had he forgotten something? No

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:42 pm
by Doriana
Is he applying for citizenship? If so, is he eligible for German citizenship? Is his original citizenship relevant?
Citizenship tests relevant?
Relevant how long ago he immigrated to Germany? If so, less than a year ago? less than five years ago? less than 10 years ago? Earlier than that?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:58 pm
by LemonCurry
Is he applying for citizenship? Yes!
If so, is he eligible for German citizenship? Yes
Is his original citizenship relevant? I'll say Yes. He's from Brazil.
Citizenship tests relevant? No
Relevant how long ago he immigrated to Germany? Long enough to be eligible for citizenship, otherwise irrel
If so, less than a year ago? less than five years ago? less than 10 years ago? Earlier than that

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:17 pm
by Doriana
Is his request related to his citizenship status? to his new passport? to his old passport?

Relevant that Brazilian passports are blue (at least a quick search tells me they are), while German passports are red? Is he frustrated that his new passport will be red? Does he demand a blue one? Does the clerk tell him to go colour a sheet of paper blue and use it as a passport cover?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:42 pm
by LemonCurry
Is his request related to his citizenship status? No
to his new passport? Yesish
to his old passport? No

Relevant that Brazilian passports are blue (at least a quick search tells me they are), while German passports are red? Is he frustrated that his new passport will be red? Does he demand a blue one? Does the clerk tell him to go colour a sheet of paper blue and use it as a passport cover? No to these

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:36 pm
by Doriana
Is the appearance of the passport relevant? If so, what it looks like on the outside? on the inside?
Language of the passport relevant? Does he want his passport to be in Portuguese?
Content of the passport relevant?
Duration of the citizen application procedure relevant? Waiting for the passport relevant? Does he want it right away?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:01 am
by LemonCurry
Is the appearance of the passport relevant? If so, what it looks like on the outside? on the inside?
Language of the passport relevant? Does he want his passport to be in Portuguese?

Content of the passport relevant? This-ish, no to rest

Duration of the citizen application procedure relevant? Waiting for the passport relevant? Does he want it right away?

Clarification: The "passport-ish" we're talking about is actually the ID Card. Puzzlers from countries with no such thing can assume our hero applies for a passport.
Furthermore, I would like to suggest that we are not invoking the LTPF list of contents of a passport or ID Card, or list all of those contents in a question, as this would $poil a lot of satisfaction.

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:05 am
by Doriana
Does he want something included on his ID card that's usually not included? Does he want something omitted that's usually included?

Does he lie about any of the things included? Height relevant?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:02 pm
by LemonCurry
Does he want something included on his ID card that's usually not included? Yes
Does he want something omitted that's usually included? No

Does he lie about any of the things included? Height relevant? No and No

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:26 pm
by Doriana
Was the thing included on his Brazilian ID card?

When the man got frustrated, did he misbehave in any way? insult the clerk? yell at the clerk? throw a tantrum?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:49 am
by gregoryuconn
His signature? Did he sign it with a crayon?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:03 am
by LemonCurry
Doriana

Was the thing included on his Brazilian ID card?
Assume yes (although not strictly necessary, and I'm not sure, not being an expert in Brazilian documents)

When the man got frustrated, did he misbehave in any way? irrel, assume no
insult the clerk? yell at the clerk? throw a tantrum?

gregoryuconn

His signature? Is actually relevant, but could mislead. Beware of FA.

Did he sign it with a crayon? Possibly (beware same FA)

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:35 pm
by gregoryuconn
Trying to clear up the FA. So to confirm, is the relevant signature the one on his ID card? Or did he just have to sign some other document (like a form) to get his ID card? Does he even have to sign the ID card at all? Or did he not have to sign the form either and he complained about poor security or something?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:47 am
by LemonCurry
Trying to clear up the FA.
So to confirm, is the relevant signature the one on his ID card?
Or did he just have to sign some other document (like a form) to get his ID card?

The relevant signature is not the one that will end up on his ID, nor any signature on application documents

Does he even have to sign the ID card at all? Yes, n/a to rest
Or did he not have to sign the form either and he complained about poor security or something?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:32 am
by Doriana
Is the relevant signature made in the kids' corner?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:50 am
by LemonCurry
Is the relevant signature made in the kids' corner? Yes!

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:23 am
by Doriana
So, he provides a regular signature for his ID card and then makes another relevant signature in the kids' corner, right?

Did he want his signature to be in colour? Did he want to include a drawing?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:03 pm
by LemonCurry
So, he provides a regular signature for his ID card and then makes another relevant signature in the kids' corner, right?
Correct (but while the signature is relevant, I would recommend not to focus on the signature too much)

Did he want his signature to be in colour? Did he want to include a drawing? No

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:47 am
by LemonCurry
RECAP:

A man from Brazil applies for German citizenship. When it comes to issuing an ID Card, he demands to have something unusual included, and gets frustrated when he finds out that including this entry is not permitted. He gets happy after he is sent to the kids' Corner, where he draws a picture and makes a relevant signature.


No special knowledge of German citizenship or German ID Cards is required for this puzzle (you can think of the ID Card as a passport, if you like).

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:30 pm
by Doriana
Is the thing he demands to have included in fact a drawing? Or a piece of information? If so, information about him? about someone else?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:11 pm
by LemonCurry
Is the thing he demands to have included in fact a drawing? No
Or a piece of information? Yes
If so, information about him? Yes about someone else? No

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:31 pm
by Doriana
Is the piece of information represented in the drawing?

Does the piece of information relate to his appearance?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:09 pm
by LemonCurry
Is the piece of information represented in the drawing? yope

Does the piece of information relate to his appearance? noish

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:53 am
by GalFisk
Does anything he creates in the kids' corner end up on the ID card itself? Does he put his creation besides the ID, so that when he shows the ID what he drew is also seen? Is the thing he wants on the card something he is especially proud of?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:33 pm
by LemonCurry
Does anything he creates in the kids' corner end up on the ID card itself? no, small ish
Does he put his creation besides the ID, so that when he shows the ID what he drew is also seen? no
Is the thing he wants on the card something he is especially proud of?
probably yes, but not strictly relevant

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:11 pm
by GalFisk
Is the signature he makes in the kids' corner included on the ID? Does he sign the picture? Does he want the picture to be included on the ID? Is he an artist? Is his profession relevant?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:08 pm
by LemonCurry
Is the signature he makes in the kids' corner included on the ID? No (or maybe, IDK actually)
Does he sign the picture? Yes!
Does he want the picture to be included on the ID? no
Is he an artist? Big YOPE, or no with a big ISH
Is his profession relevant? Big YES

Now we are getting somewhere...

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:44 am
by GalFisk
Does he draw in his job? Sign things? Is he an architect? Engineer? Does he want his profession included on the ID? Is his signature especially relevant?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:23 pm
by LemonCurry
Does he draw in his job? no Sign things? not relevantly
Is he an architect? Engineer? no and no
Does he want his profession included on the ID? noish
Is his signature especially relevant? not really

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:43 am
by GalFisk
Does he work with buildings? Humans? Technology? Research? Culture? History? Medicine?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:54 am
by LemonCurry
Does he work with buildings? Humans? Technology? Research? Culture? History? Medicine?

certainly with humans, and yopeishly culture

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:03 am
by GalFisk
Humans: toddlers? Preschoolers? School kids? High school kids? College kids? Adults? Elderly? Is he an educator? Trainer? Leader? Politician?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:53 am
by LemonCurry
Humans: toddlers? Preschoolers? School kids? High school kids? College kids? Adults? This, primarilyElderly?
Is he an educator? Trainer? Leader? Politician? No to all

Clarification: "Works certainly with humans" means he certainly has humans as co-workers, not necessarily as subjects of his work

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:27 am
by Hobbsicle
Does he work with art in some way? Like an art dealer? Or museum curator? Auctions?

When he makes this picture and signs it, does he bring the picture back to the clerk? Does the information he was requesting get added? Does it get added in a different way than originally requested? Is it included in the ID picture?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:36 am
by LemonCurry
Does he work with art in some way? Like an art dealer? Or museum curator? Auctions?

No to these, the Yope/Noish anwer was aiming at another direction. Don‘t forget we‘re in an office

When he makes this picture and signs it, does he bring the picture back to the clerk? Yes Does the information he was requesting get added? yes Does it get added in a different way than originally requested? no, his original request was fulfilled
Is it included in the ID picture? no

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:18 pm
by GalFisk
Is the subject of his work: finances? Math? Programming? Computer-related? Law? Assisting someone?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:44 pm
by LemonCurry
Is the subject of his work: finances? Math? Programming? Computer-related? Law? Assisting someone?
No to all

HINT: Complete this sentence without including a job or profession:
He was not really an artist, BUT...

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:47 am
by Doriana
but... he made art? people thought he was an artist? he shared a name with an artist?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:51 am
by LemonCurry
but... he made art? no people thought he was an artist? noish
he shared a name with an artist? not relevantly

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:59 pm
by GalFisk
He thought he was? He wanted to be? He played one on TV?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:53 am
by LemonCurry
He thought he was? no
He wanted to be?
Yesish or Yope, OTRT. Explore carefully
He played one on TV? no but nice idea

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:35 am
by Doriana
Was he an art student?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:04 am
by LemonCurry
Was he an art student? No, he "wants to become an artist" in a more lateral way. We're still in an office...

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:20 pm
by GalFisk
Is art involved in his work? Is he creatively fulfilled by his work? Creatively frustrated? Does he incorporate art in his work when it's not called for? Does he make needlessly artistic documents, spreadsheets or presentations?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:45 pm
by LemonCurry
Is art involved in his work? Is he creatively fulfilled by his work? Creatively frustrated? Does he incorporate art in his work when it's not called for? Does he make needlessly artistic documents, spreadsheets or presentations?
No or Irrel - the "wants to become an artist" bit does not involve any artsy activities

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:22 pm
by GalFisk
Does he just want to be known as an artist? Does he want to impersonate someone? Relevnt what kind of artist he "wants to become"? If so: actor? Painter? Dancer? Singer? Photographer? Stuntman? Director? Does he want to look like an artist? If so, one specific artist? Does he look like an artist?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:52 pm
by LemonCurry
Does he just want to be known as an artist?
yesish, getting closer
Does he want to impersonate someone? no
Relevnt what kind of artist he "wants to become"?
yes, but only because...
If so: actor? Painter? this, or graphic artist Dancer? Singer? Photographer? Stuntman? Director?

Does he want to look like an artist? If so, one specific Artist? Does he look like an artist?
no to these

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:49 pm
by Doriana
Does he want a stage name / alias included on his passport? And for that, he has to prove that he is actually an artist?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:33 pm
by LemonCurry
Does he want a stage name / alias included on his passport?
YES!!
And for that, he has to prove that he is actually an artist? Yes, for svv of „prove“.

But why was the clerk so lenient to accept a drawing from the kids‘ corner as „proof“?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:53 pm
by Doriana
Are the rules so lenient that any signed work of art counts as proof? Did the clerk just not care?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:46 am
by LemonCurry
Are the rules so lenient that any signed work of art counts as proof? no Did the clerk just not care? correct, but for a reason

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:03 am
by GalFisk
Did the clerk not care because: she never cared? It was her last day? It didn't matter? Because she gained something? Because she admired the guy? Because she was technically correct, which is the best kind of correct?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:22 am
by LemonCurry
Did the clerk not care because: she never cared? It was her last day? It didn't matter?
Because she gained something?
Because she admired the guy? Not relevantly, but this is closest
Because she was technically correct, which is the best kind of correct?

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:18 am
by Doriana
Relevant why he wanted the alias included on his passport?
Relevant what the alias was? Is it a nickname of his real name? Something entirely different?
Relevant that it's kind of common for people from Brazil (e.g. football players) to go by their nickname instead of their official name? Was the guy in fact a football player?

ETA/WAG: The guy is a well-known football player and the clerk recognizes him. He wants his nickname (under which he is known as a football player) included on his passport. The clerk tells him that aliases are only for artists, not for athletes, but lets him "prove" his artist status by sending him to the kids' corner to draw and sign a picture.

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:12 pm
by LemonCurry
Relevant why he wanted the alias included on his passport?
Relevant what the alias was? Is it a nickname of his real name? Something entirely different?
Relevant that it's kind of common for people from Brazil (e.g. football players) to go by their nickname instead of their official name? Was the guy in fact a football player?

ETA/WAG: The guy is a well-known football player and the clerk recognizes him. He wants his nickname (under which he is known as a football player) included on his passport. The clerk tells him that aliases are only for artists, not for athletes, but lets him "prove" his artist status by sending him to the kids' corner to draw and sign a picture.

YES to all (or close enough), well done! But what does ETA mean?

SPOILER

A Brazilian football pro, who has played some time in Germany, applies for German citizenship.
As with many Brazilian football players, he is primarily known by his nickname, so he wants his nickname to be officialy recognized in his documents, so he can further use it for contracts, on his jersey etc. The clerk says no, in German legislation, football player is not an accepted reason to have an alias included in one's document. But since his interest in getting his nickname in the documents is obviously legitimate judging with common sense, she suggests that she register him as an "artist". All she would need will be a reference "artwork" signed with his nickname, which he happily creates on the spot in the kids' corner.


This story was once included in the Wikipedia article for Brazilian-German striker Cacau (well, it didn't say kids' corner, but where else do you have the means to create a spontaneous artwork in an office?). It's no longer there, and there are reasons to dismiss it as an urban legend. It is, or at least was at one point, however, true that playing football is not considered a legitimate interest to get an alias into a German ID. There is another (true) story of a football player with no Brazilian roots, who created a whole exhibition of oil paintings just to be allowed his nickname on his jersey. Maybe that story would have been an even better choice for a lateral puzzle...

Congratulations Doriana for the solve, and also GalFisk for a ot of work on this!

Re: [LemonCurry] She couldn't send him to his room [GROUNDED

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:01 pm
by Doriana
Great puzzle!

ETA means "edited to add" :)