[IrishElk] Backwards Lake

[irishelk]

Two coworkers, Derek and Nelly, had a brief and pleasant text conversation. It made Derek quite annoyed. Nelly appreciated the positive chat at the time, but was annoyed by it later. Why?

[Earnest]

Derek = HAM? Nelly = HAF?

brief and pleasant text conversation --> at work? with phone? With PC? With letters? relevant? Did they know that they were writing to each other? (e.g. letters to Juliet inn which basically people send anonymous mails)

Had they chatted before? Is the topic of the conversation relevant? Was it about work?
About hobbies? About love?
Relevant the reason why the had a text conversation rather than a face to face conversation? Relevant their work? Did they know each other? Did they work in the same building? Or maybe for the same firm but in different places? Was there work mainly online?

Was Derek annoyed when Nelly was not and viceversa? Or irrelevant whether the other of the two was annoyed one was? Were the two annoyed for the same reason in the two different time periods? If so: for the topic of the chat? For the notifications arriving? For the fact that written words remain (and could hence been shown to someone else)? Had the conversation been face to face, would they have been annoyed? If so, in two different time periods as in the statement? In the same period? Soon after the conversation? Years later?

later = hours later? days? months? seconds? years? Did they keep on chatting? Is any notification relevant? (e.g. they used a software that classifies the pops up the profiles of people according to the previous interactions. Since the two only interacted directly to each other, each time Nelly opened the chat, Derek's face/news popped up)
Were the two still coworkers when Nelly was annoyed? Assuming they were annoyed in 2 different time slots, relevant the position of Nelly with respect to Derek (or viceversa) at work in the 2 time slots? Did one of the two have an advancement in career?

[irishelk]

Earnest

Derek = HAM? Nelly = HAF? Yes.

brief and pleasant text conversation --> at work? with phone? This. With PC? With letters? relevant? Did they know that they were writing to each other? Yes.

Had they chatted before? Yes. Is the topic of the conversation relevant? Yes. Was it about work? Yes.
About hobbies? About love? No to rest.
Relevant the reason why the had a text conversation rather than a face to face conversation? Not really. Relevant their work? Yes. Did they know each other? Yes. Did they work in the same building? Yes. Or maybe for the same firm but in different places? At the time of the puzzle, they physically work together. Was there work mainly online? No.

Was Derek annoyed when Nelly was not and viceversa? Derek was annoyed throughout, Nelly only became annoyed later. Or irrelevant whether the other of the two was annoyed one was?
Were the two annoyed for the same reason in the two different time periods? Not exactly, but for related reasons. If so: for the topic of the chat? Yes. For the notifications arriving? No. For the fact that written words remain (and could hence been shown to someone else)? No. Had the conversation been face to face, would they have been annoyed? Yes. If so, in two different time periods as in the statement? Yes. In the same period? Soon after the conversation? Years later? It would largely be the same whether in person or via text.

later = hours later? days? Hours or a couple days. months? seconds? years? Did they keep on chatting? No. Is any notification relevant? No. (e.g. they used a software that classifies the pops up the profiles of people according to the previous interactions. Since the two only interacted directly to each other, each time Nelly opened the chat, Derek's face/news popped up) No, good guess!

Were the two still coworkers when Nelly was annoyed? Yes. Assuming they were annoyed in 2 different time slots, relevant the position of Nelly with respect to Derek (or viceversa) at work in the 2 time slots? Yesish. Did one of the two have an advancement in career? No.

[Balin]

Is their precise job relevant?
Did they talk on mobile phones? On landlines? On their work phones?
Is either (or both) of their names relevant?

[GalFisk]

Do they both think the conversation is pleasant? Is it in a pleasant tone? In agreement? Is there a relevant undercurrent? Any relevant ommissions or untruths? Did Nelly intend for Derek to be annoyed? Vice versa? Did the annoyance relevantly show up in any of the text? Did Nelly become annoyed because fo something that happened? Something she realized? Such as a double meaning of a word or phrase?

[irishelk]

Balin

Is their precise job relevant? Yes.
Did they talk on mobile phones? Assume this, but largely irr. On landlines? On their work phones?
Is either (or both) of their names relevant? No.


GalFisk

Do they both think the conversation is pleasant? At the time, Nelly does, Derek...hard to say. Is it in a pleasant tone? Yes. In agreement? Yes. Is there a relevant undercurrent? Yesish. Any relevant ommissions or untruths? You could vaguely call it untruths. Did Nelly intend for Derek to be annoyed? No. Vice versa? YES. Did the annoyance relevantly show up in any of the text? No. Did Nelly become annoyed because fo something that happened? That the convo itself happened, yes.Something she realized? Yes. Such as a double meaning of a word or phrase? Not really.

[JenBurdoo]

Did the conversation interrupt something that Derek was doing? Did the texting make a relevant noise?

(For example: Derek is in a meeting and his phone keeps going off.)

[irishelk]

JenBurdoo

Did the conversation interrupt something that Derek was doing? No. Did the texting make a relevant noise? No.

[GalFisk]

Could Nelly have become annoyed during the conversation? Did Derek do anything besides having the conversation, in order to cause the annoyance? Such as doing something, giving the impression that he'd done something else during the convo, with resulting annoyance when she found out the discrepancy? Did she make a false assumption? Relevant why Derek wanted to annoy her? Was it revenge for something? Did he do unto her as she had previously done unto him? Are they office workers? Do they work outdoors? Is the annoyance mean-spirited? Lighthearted? Do they work with humans? Animals? Machines? Tools?

[hominid]

Are Derek and Nelly annoyed at each other? At their employer? At another coworker? At someone else relevant to their job (e.g. a customer)? At someone else entirely? At their working conditions? Did Derek think Nelly was also annoyed while the conversation was going on? Did he expect her to become annoyed during the course of the conversation? After the conversation? Did Nelly find out some relevant information after the conversation took place? Did she make the realization because a certain amount of time had passed? Or did she just make the realization because she thought about the conversation a bit harder?

You said that the conversation made Derek annoyed--so this means that Derek was not annoyed at the beginning of the conversation? Did he become annoyed because of something Nelly wrote?

[irishelk]

GalFisk

Could Nelly have become annoyed during the conversation? If she realized something earlier, sure.
Did Derek do anything besides having the conversation, in order to cause the annoyance? Yes. Such as doing something, giving the impression that he'd done something else during the convo, with resulting annoyance when she found out the discrepancy? Not exactly. Did she make a false assumption? No.
Relevant why Derek wanted to annoy her? Yes, or at least it should help. Was it revenge for something? No. Did he do unto her as she had previously done unto him? No. Are they office workers? No. Do they work outdoors? Sometimes. Is the annoyance mean-spirited? Debatable. Lighthearted? Derek would say so. I'd say...unnecessarily rude. Do they work with humans? Yes. Animals? Machines? Tools? To others--likely sometimes, but not relevant to the puzzle.


hominid

Are Derek and Nelly annoyed at each other? Yes. At their employer? Nelly, yes. At another coworker? At someone else relevant to their job (e.g. a customer)? At someone else entirely? At their working conditions? No to rest.
Did Derek think Nelly was also annoyed while the conversation was going on? No. Did he expect her to become annoyed during the course of the conversation? YES. After the conversation? Possibly, but not for the reason that she did. Did Nelly find out some relevant information after the conversation took place? Yes. Did she make the realization because a certain amount of time had passed? No. Or did she just make the realization because she thought about the conversation a bit harder? She might have figured it out this way, but in fact she did learn other information.

You said that the conversation made Derek annoyed--so this means that Derek was not annoyed at the beginning of the conversation? Yes. Did he become annoyed because of something Nelly wrote? Yes.

[Balin]

Do Derek and Nellly work in a blue-collar job? White-collar? Pink-collar?
Is Derek currently annoyed at their employer? If so, did Derek want Nelly to feel the same annoyance?

[hominid]

Did Derek initiate the conversation? Did Nelly?

Is the boss HAF? HAM?

Did the boss favor Derek? Nelly? Did Derek perceive the boss as favoring Derek? Nelly? Did Nelly perceive the boss as favoring Derek? Nelly?

Did Nelly and Derek have essentially the same job? Were they paid the same? Is payment at all relevant? Did Derek and Nelly have positive feelings about each other before this happened? Negative feelings? Are Derek and Nelly at all relevantly connected to each other outside of work?

Did Nelly share some positive news about work? Did Derek? Did the text conversation occur at work? At home? Somewhere else?

The information that Nelly found out later: was it from the boss? From another coworker? From Derek? From someone else? From the Internet? On the radio? On TV? From a book? Was she at work when she found out? Was she at home? If it was from a person, did that person intend to make Nelly annoyed? Would they have expected to make Nelly annoyed? Would they have expected her to be annoyed already?

[GalFisk]

Did Derek trick her? Are the humans they work with: clients? Customers? Coworkers? Patients? Students? Prisoners? Pasengers? Individuals? Groups? Did he trick her into saying something? Assuming something? Language barries relevant? Technical terms?

[irishelk]

Balin

Do Derek and Nellly work in a blue-collar job? White-collar? Pink-collar? Hard to categorize in this way, not really any of these.
Is Derek currently annoyed at their employer? No. If so, did Derek want Nelly to feel the same annoyance?


hominid

Did Derek initiate the conversation? This. Did Nelly?

Is the boss HAF? HAM? This.

Did the boss favor Derek? Nelly? Did Derek perceive the boss as favoring Derek? Nelly? Did Nelly perceive the boss as favoring Derek? Nelly? To prevent confusion, Derek is the 'employer' I answered yes to above. Their job roles are unusual, so the titles coworker, employer or boss are a little inexact.

Did Nelly and Derek have essentially the same job? No. Were they paid the same? Irr, but no. Is payment at all relevant? No. Did Derek and Nelly have positive feelings about each other before this happened? Negative feelings? Irr. Are Derek and Nelly at all relevantly connected to each other outside of work? No.

Did Nelly share some positive news about work? Not news per se, but she was positive about work. Did Derek? Ditto. Did the text conversation occur at work? At home? Somewhere else?Irr.

The information that Nelly found out later: was it from the boss? From another coworker? This. From Derek? From someone else? From the Internet? On the radio? On TV? From a book?No to rest.
Was she at work when she found out?Assume yes. Was she at home?
If it was from a person, did that person intend to make Nelly annoyed? Would they have expected to make Nelly annoyed? Would they have expected her to be annoyed already? Irr, they may or may not have anticipated her reaction.


GalFisk

Did Derek trick her? Noish, but maybe explore.
Are the humans they work with: clients? Customers? Coworkers? This, although they wouldn't typically be called that. Patients? Students? Prisoners? Pasengers? Individuals? Groups? They work with many other individuals that are in several groups.
Did he trick her into saying something? No, but explore. Assuming something? Not exactly. Language barries relevant?No. Technical terms?No.

[hominid]

Is the other coworker HAM? HAF? Did the coworker know about Nelly's conversation with Derek? Did the coworker have any relevant feelings towards Derek? Nelly? Is Derek also the coworker's boss? Is the coworker also Nelly's boss?

Do they work at a large company? Small business? Organization? Some arm of the government? Religious body? School?

When Derek initiated the conversation, did he have any motive beyond exchanging pleasant words about work? Did Nelly say something that surprised Derek? Did Nelly's text reveal that Nelly was not doing her job correctly? That she was being treated unfairly compared to other people? That other people were being treated unfairly compared to her?

Did Derek at any point try to see if Nelly was doing her job correctly?

Is Derek Nelly's supervisor? Did he hire Nelly? Is he capable of firing Nelly? Did he fire Nelly at any point? Did he favor another coworker over Nelly? The coworker that gave Nelly the information? Did Nelly do something to disobey Derek in some way?

[irishelk]

hominid

Is the other coworker HAM? HAF? This. Did the coworker know about Nelly's conversation with Derek? Eventually, yes. Did the coworker have any relevant feelings towards Derek? Nelly? Not super relevant to the puzzle, but you could figure out their likely feelings. Is Derek also the coworker's boss? In the same sense that he is Nelly's, yes. Is the coworker also Nelly's boss? No.

Do they work at a large company? Small business? Organization? Some arm of the government? Religious body? School? None of these apply precisely. There are companies involved, but I wouldn't call them a company.

When Derek initiated the conversation, did he have any motive beyond exchanging pleasant words about work? Yes. Did Nelly say something that surprised Derek? Yes. Did Nelly's text reveal that Nelly was not doing her job correctly? No. That she was being treated unfairly compared to other people? No. That other people were being treated unfairly compared to her? No.

Did Derek at any point try to see if Nelly was doing her job correctly? No.

Is Derek Nelly's supervisor? Not exactly. Did he hire Nelly? He probably had some say in her hiring. Is he capable of firing Nelly? Probably, depending on circumstances. Did he fire Nelly at any point? No. Did he favor another coworker over Nelly? Yope--explore. The coworker that gave Nelly the information? Yesish. Did Nelly do something to disobey Derek in some way? No.

[hominid]

Can we call the other coworker Stephanie? Does she likely have positive feelings toward Derek? Nelly? Negative feelings toward Derek? Nelly?

Derek's other motive in initiating the conversation: was he trying to find out some information? Communicate something to Nelly? Mislead Nelly? Hurt Nelly? Inconvenience Nelly? Did the conversation mention Stephanie?

Did Derek give something to Stephanie? Nelly? Assign a certain task to Stephanie? Nelly? Take something away from Stephanie? Nelly?

Does Derek have a relevant relationship with Stephanie outside work? Does Nelly?

Was Derek fully aware that he was texting with Nelly? Was Nelly fully aware that she was texting with Derek?

[irishelk]

hominid

Can we call the other coworker Stephanie? Absolutely. Does she likely have positive feelings toward Derek? Nelly? Negative feelings toward Derek? Nelly? Positive toward Nelly, at least somewhat negative toward Derek.

Derek's other motive in initiating the conversation: was he trying to find out some information? Communicate something to Nelly? Mislead Nelly? Along these lines, but not exactly. Hurt Nelly? In part, yes. Inconvenience Nelly? No to rest. Did the conversation mention Stephanie? Yes.

Did Derek give something to Stephanie? Nelly? Assign a certain task to Stephanie? Nelly? Take something away from Stephanie? Nelly? No to all.

Does Derek have a relevant relationship with Stephanie outside work? Does Nelly? No.

Was Derek fully aware that he was texting with Nelly? Yes. Was Nelly fully aware that she was texting with Derek? Yes.

[hominid]

So he was trying to start a pleasant conversation, but also hurt/mislead(ish) Nelly when he started the conversation, but he didn't get annoyed until partway through the conversation? Is it relevant why he was doing this to Nelly?

Did Nelly react in an unexpected way to Derek's text? An unwanted (by Derek) way? Did she fail to get misled/hurt by Derek?

Was Derek trying to "hurt Nelly" emotionally? Mentally? Physically? Financially? Socially?

Did the conversation include a value judgement on Stephanie? Did Derek initiate the conversation by mentioning Stephanie? Did Derek introduce Stephanie's name into the conversation later? Did Nelly introduce Stephanie's name into the conversation? Is Stephanie a new hire? Is she the only other person employed there?

Was Derek expecting Nelly to: agree with Derek? Disagree with Derek? Find Derek's text funny? Was a joke involved?

Was Derek trying to pit Stephanie and Nelly against each other?

Did Nelly get annoyed when she realized Derek's ulterior motive in texting her?

[irishelk]

hominid

So he was trying to start a pleasant conversation, No. but also hurt/mislead(ish) Nelly when he started the conversation, Noish. but he didn't get annoyed until partway through the conversation? Yes. Is it relevant why he was doing this to Nelly? Yes.

Did Nelly react in an unexpected way to Derek's text? Yes. An unwanted (by Derek) way? Yes. Did she fail to get misled/hurt by Derek? Correct!

Was Derek trying to "hurt Nelly" emotionally? Mainly this. Mentally? Physically? Financially? Socially? Thisish.

Did the conversation include a value judgement on Stephanie? Yes. Did Derek initiate the conversation by mentioning Stephanie? Yes. Did Derek introduce Stephanie's name into the conversation later? Irr about the exact point, but Stephanie was the focus. Did Nelly introduce Stephanie's name into the conversation? No. Is Stephanie a new hire? No. Is she the only other person employed there? No, but the only one relevant to the puzzle.

Was Derek expecting Nelly to: agree with Derek? No. Disagree with Derek? Possibly. Find Derek's text funny? No. Was a joke involved? No.

Was Derek trying to pit Stephanie and Nelly against each other? Yes!

Did Nelly get annoyed when she realized Derek's ulterior motive in texting her? Yes.

[hominid]

Did Derek start the conversation by: saying something positive about Stephanie? Something negative about Stephanie? Did he make a general statement about Stephanie? A true statement? A false statement?

Did he ask Nelly a question about Stephanie? Was it "How do you feel about Stephanie?" or something like that?

Did Derek also start a similar conversation with Stephanie, about Nelly? Did Nelly find this out, and get annoyed by that?

[irishelk]

hominid

Did Derek start the conversation by: saying something positive about Stephanie? Yes. Something negative about Stephanie? No. Did he make a general statement about Stephanie? Fairly specific. A true statement? A false statement? Doesn't really matter, but assume true.

Did he ask Nelly a question about Stephanie? Was it "How do you feel about Stephanie?" or something like that? This might have been involved but was not the main message.

Did Derek also start a similar conversation with Stephanie, about Nelly? Yes. Did Nelly find this out, and get annoyed by that? Yes!

[hominid]

Did Dale tell Nelly that Stephanie was: nice? Smart? Attractive? Good-looking? Good at her job? Talented? Compassionate? Friendly? Professional? Well-dressed?

[irishelk]

hominid

Did Dale tell Nelly that Stephanie was: nice? Smart? Attractive? Good-looking? Good at her job? This... Talented? ...and this are the main points, though he might have touched on all of the above. Compassionate? Friendly? Professional? Well-dressed?

I think you've got most of the main points here, but I think it's worthwhile to figure out his specific motivation to do this.

[hominid]

Unions relevant? Are Nelly and Stephanie part of a union? Thinking about forming one? Are they considering banding together against Derek in some way? Is a promotion relevant?

[irishelk]

hominid

Unions relevant? Are Nelly and Stephanie part of a union? Thinking about forming one? Are they considering banding together against Derek in some way? Is a promotion relevant? No to all.

[hominid]

Is Derek trying to get back at Nelly? at Stephanie? Does he have something to gain from pitting them against each other? Monetary gain?

[irishelk]

hominid

Is Derek trying to get back at Nelly? at Stephanie? No to both. Does he have something to gain from pitting them against each other? Yes. Monetary gain? Likely indirectly, but there is a more immediate reason.

[hominid]

Is Derek trying to gain someone's favor? Nelly? Stephanie? A higher-up? Is he trying to get Nelly fired? get Stephanie fired? get Nelly to quit? get Stephanie to quit? get another job for himself?

[irishelk]

hominid

Is Derek trying to gain someone's favor? Nelly? Stephanie? A higher-up? Is he trying to get Nelly fired? get Stephanie fired? get Nelly to quit? get Stephanie to quit? get another job for himself? No to all.

[Balin]

Is Derek trying to earn a promotion?

[irishelk]

Balin

Is Derek trying to earn a promotion? No.

HINT: Their specific industry is very relevant.

[hominid]

Are the humans they work with adults? children? babies? men? women? Would they be described as customers? clients? patients? students?

Do they work in the media? Are they journalists?

[irishelk]

hominid

Are the humans they work with adults? This.children? babies?
men? women? Both.
Would they be described as customers? clients? patients? students? No, coworkers is closest, that is just not what they are typically called in this job.

Do they work in the media? For SVV of media, but... Are they journalists? No.

[Balin]

Does the public see them while they are working?

[hominid]

Are they making a movie? a TV show? some other form of art?

[irishelk]

Balin

Does the public see them while they are working? Not live, but they see some of them later...


hominid

Are they making a movie? Yes! a TV show? some other form of art?

[hominid]

Are Derek, Nelly, and Stephanie actors? crew members? If they're actors, is it relevant what characters they play? Do the characters relevantly have conflicts with each other?

[irishelk]

hominid

Are Derek, Nelly, and Stephanie actors? Yes for Nelly & Stephanie. crew members? Yes for Derek. If they're actors, is it relevant what characters they play? Only insofar as... Do the characters relevantly have conflicts with each other? Yes!

[Zanreo]

Are Nelly and Stephanie's characters rivals? Enemies? Did Derek try pitting them against each other to make them more "in-character"?

[irishelk]

Zanreo

Are Nelly and Stephanie's characters rivals? Enemies? Did Derek try pitting them against each other to make them more "in-character"? That's it. Nice job hominid, Balin, Zanreo and everybody!


**************************SPOILER

Apparently a true story from the set of Black Swan: "Nelly" is Natalie Portman, "Stephanie" is Mila Kunis, and "Derek" is director Darren Aronofsky. He started texting Portman, gushing about how good a performer Mila is, isn't she a great dancer, isn't she just beautiful and perfect in every way, etc. Natalie agreed with him: she really liked Kunis and was impressed by her performance. The text chat abruptly ended.

It wasn't until later that she discovered that he had sent the exact same praising texts to Kunis about Portman, and Kunis had similarly responded that she was honored to work with Natalie, loved her, etc. Aronofsky had seemingly been trying to pit the two against each other, to make their rivalry in the movie more realistic (kind of the same strategy that the creepy director in the movie uses, actually!). Unfortunately for him, the women got along great.

[Balin]

I'd heard this story before; you worded the puzzle statement very well and I didn't recognize it. Nicely done!

[Zanreo]

Nice one!

[hominid]

Nice puzzle! This one was fun to solve.

[irishelk]

Why thank you!