[WiZ] One Four-all, and all Four-one

[WiZ]

There are five. Are there three or two?

What am I on about?

Vaguely BOATS. No caveat.

[Balin]

Is there a definite, concrete answer to this question? If so, is it three? Two? Is the answer always the same?
Does "five" refer to a tangible object? The age of something? Same questions for three and two?

[WiZ]

Hi Balin

Is there a definite, concrete answer to this question? yes If so, is it three? Two? no to both Is the answer always the same? yes
Does "five" refer to a tangible object? no The age of something? no Same questions for three and two? no in both cases

[Balin]

Is the answer "yes"? "No"?

[WiZ]

Is the answer "yes"? "No"? No to both.

[Zanreo]

Is the answer "maybe"? "Sometimes"? Does the answer depend on how you look at it? Is it counting something? Does "five" refer to a concept? A quality or something? Is it somewhere inbetween three and two? Does the thing that is five and the thing that is three or two refer to the same thing? If there were six, would "three or two" be different numbers? If there were four? Relevant that it's written as "three or two" and not "two or three"?

[WiZ]

Is the answer "maybe"? "Sometimes"? no to both Does the answer depend on how you look at it? The answer is not a matter of interpretation Is it counting something? the 'count' of something is represented in the puzzle statement,yes Does "five" refer to a concept? A quality or something? Is it somewhere inbetween three and two? no to all Does the thing that is five and the thing that is three or two refer to the same thing? yes, but beware FA If there were six, would "three or two" be different numbers? no If there were four? The statement would no longer work if there were four Relevant that it's written as "three or two" and not "two or three"? yes

[peter365]

The puzzle title is the solution to a very clever Dingbat, is that relevant?

Are roman numerals relevant? Some other way of representing five , three or two? Are dice relevant? games? sports ? newsworthy events? Politics? geography? History?

If the puzzle statement read 'There are 5. Are there 3 or 2?' would it still work?

[Zanreo]

If "five" changes, can "three or two" also change? If five is a higher number? Lower? Will the statement not work (with any numbers) if five is any lower number?

[WiZ]

Peter

The puzzle title is the solution to a very clever Dingbat, is that relevant? You have identified the reference, but the reference is irrelevant (outside of adding the numbers 1 and 4 to a statement involving 2, 3 and 5)

Are roman numerals relevant? no Some other way of representing five , three or two? no Are dice relevant? no games? noish sports ? no newsworthy events? no Politics? noish geography? no History? noish

If the puzzle statement read 'There are 5. Are there 3 or 2?' would it still work? yes

Zanreo

If "five" changes, can "three or two" also change? It depends on how 'five' changes - see next answers If five is a higher number? Three or two would be less likely to change Lower? Three or two would be more likely to change Will the statement not work (with any numbers) if five is any lower number? Correct - Any lower number would not allow me to present the puzzle statement - at least, as given

[Balin]

Is the title relevant other than your answer to Pete above?

[WiZ]

Is the title relevant other than your answer to Pete above? no

[Balin]

Is it relevant that three and two add up to five?

[Zanreo]

If "three or two" changes, do both numbers change at the same time? Could three change with two staying the same? Or vice versa?

[WiZ]

Balin

Is it relevant that three and two add up to five? no

Zanreo

If "three or two" changes, do both numbers change at the same time? no Could three change with two staying the same? yes Or vice versa? yes

[Earnest]

Jumping in on this one...

inverse proportionality between size of x and variation likelihood of numbers right? i.e. the higher x the lower the likelihood that the two (are always just two numbers?) subsequent numbers change and vice versa, right? Are bets/probabilities/hazard (e.g. cards) involved?

Are calendars relevant? Games? Boxes to be uncovered? Something that could be discovered? That can be deduced? A logical consequence of the fact that there are 5 (e.g. sudoku: 5 cells are occupied by numbers and 4 are still to be filled with 2 or 3)?

Any pun involved (e.g. the fact that the word "there" has 5 letters)? Is the only info that there are 5 sufficient to guess if there are 2 or 3? Is the answer 2? 3? Relevant?

so: Are there relevant blocks/units? E.g. 5 composed by 2,1,1,1 or 1,1,3; more in general, when saying there are 5, 3, 2 are we talking about: units of measurement? Food? objects? tangible objects? technology? technological devices? Sport? Rules? Emoticons? Writings? Numbers? Dates? Buildings? Coordinates? Animals? Humans? Is Christmas relevant?

Are there many 2 or 3s? Just one 2 or just one 3? Is the correspondence 5-2 or 5-3 unique? Are there other numbers displaying similar correlations to each other? E.g. 6-4? 7-4? 6-2? Others?

There are 5 = you invited 5? 5 are given? 5 formed? 5 are displayed (on a screen?)? 5 have a certain characteristic? (e.g. there are 5 people with a certain physical/clothing/others characteristic)? Are there more than 5 but 5 are the relevant ones (so that the statement could be rephrased as "there are 5 OF THEM that..."?)? You see 5? The number 5?

Are there three or two? --> were you looking at a phone? Pc? TV? Screen? Book? wallet(e.g. money and coins--> if there are 5 euros for instance, there are either 4, 5 or 3 coins...maybe in a relevant currency 5 of the currency necessarily correspond to 2 or 3 coins)?

[WiZ]

Jumping in on this one...

inverse proportionality between size of x and variation likelihood of numbers right? i.e. the higher x the lower the likelihood that the two (are always just two numbers?) subsequent numbers change and vice versa, right? Are bets/probabilities/hazard (e.g. cards) involved? no/irrel to all

Are calendars relevant? no Games? noish Boxes to be uncovered? no Something that could be discovered? That can be deduced? yope to both, for the same reason A logical consequence of the fact that there are 5 yes (e.g. sudoku: 5 cells are occupied by numbers and 4 are still to be filled with 2 or 3)? but no to anything in the vein of your example

Any pun involved not a pun, no (e.g. the fact that the word "there" has 5 letters)? But this line of thinking is very relevant Is the only info that there are 5 sufficient to guess if there are 2 or 3? no/FA Is the answer 2? 3? No to both Relevant? yes

so: Are there relevant blocks/units? no, to go by your example E.g. 5 composed by 2,1,1,1 or 1,1,3; more in general, when saying there are 5, 3, 2 are we talking about: units of measurement? Food? objects? tangible objects? technology? technological devices? Sport? no to all Rules? yes Emoticons? no Writings? noish to yope Numbers? yes, some more at face value than others Dates? Buildings? Coordinates? Animals? Humans? no to rest Is Christmas relevant? no(el)

Are there many 2 or 3s? Just one 2 or just one 3? just one of each Is the correspondence 5-2 or 5-3 unique? no Are there other numbers displaying similar correlations to each other? no E.g. 6-4? 7-4? 6-2? Others?

There are 5 = you invited 5? 5 are given? no to both 5 formed? kinda 5 are displayed (on a screen?)? potentially 5 have a certain characteristic? yes, the 5 have a relevant characteristic (e.g. there are 5 people with a certain physical/clothing/others characteristic)? nothing like this, though Are there more than 5 no but 5 are the relevant ones (so that the statement could be rephrased as "there are 5 OF THEM that..."?)? no You see 5? The number 5? no(t relevantly) to both

Are there three or two? --> were you looking at a phone? Pc? TV? Screen? Book? potentially any of the above, but this may not be a useful line of questioning wallet(e.g. money and co no

[Earnest]

So by now we know that:

1) If five is a higher number, Three or two would be less likely to change. Lower? Three or two would be more likely to change
2) Any lower number than 5 would not allow you to present the puzzle statement - at least, as given
3) The fact that the word "there" has 5 letters is a very relevant line of thinking
4) The 5 have a relevant characteristic

The fact that the word "there" has 5 letters is a very relevant line of thinking --> meaning that the word "there" has relevantly 5 letters? That there is another word that has relevantly 5 letters?

The 5 have a relevant characteristic --> relevant roman numbers (f IV e)? Font relevant? (italic?) Codes for fonts? font size? (e.g. there is size 5, while the "are there", written in italic are 3 or 2?) Other technical characteristic? Images/pictures relevant?

Is the fact that "there" is " three" with exchanged letters? Looking at the puzzle statement "There are five. Are there three or two?", I have noticed that (maybe just for grammatical reasons: the second is a question while the first one is a sentence) the first sentence is specular to the second question: first "there", then "are" and then number, while the second displays first "are" then "there" then the numbers. Is this relevant?
Is it a case where the answer is literally contained in the question? Displayed in the question?

[WiZ]

So by now we know that:

1) If five is a higher number, Three or two would be less likely to change. All other things being equal, yes Lower? Three or two would be more likely to change As above
2) Any lower number than 5 would not allow you to present the puzzle statement - at least, as given Also correct
3) The fact that the word "there" has 5 letters is a very relevant line of thinking No - this in itself is not relevant, but exploring in this vein could be worthwhile...
4) The 5 have a relevant characteristic Correct

The fact that the word "there" has 5 letters is a very relevant line of thinking --> meaning that the word "there" has relevantly 5 letters? no That there is another word that has relevantly 5 letters? also no

The 5 have a relevant characteristic --> relevant roman numbers no (f IV e)? Font relevant? (italic?) no Codes for fonts? no font size? no (e.g. there is size 5, while the "are there", written in italic are 3 or 2?) Other technical characteristic? not in this vein, no Images/pictures relevant? no

Is the fact that "there" is " three" with exchanged letters? I'm one of the world's greatest fans of anagrams, but this is not relevant to the solution Looking at the puzzle statement "There are five. Are there three or two?", I have noticed that (maybe just for grammatical reasons: the second is a question while the first one is a sentence) the first sentence is specular to the second question: first "there", then "are" and then number, while the second displays first "are" then "there" then the numbers. Is this relevant? No
Is it a case where the answer is literally contained in the question? yes! Displayed in the question? but no!

[LemonCurry]

Are there three things that are called „or two“?
Is this „or“ as in „gold“? Heraldry relevant?

[Earnest]

Before starting with serious question, I will try out some random guesses about the number 5: fingers on hands/feet? Relevant that it is odd? Relevant that 2,3 and 5 are all prime numbers? Fibonacci sequence relevant? Pentagon relevant? Religion/culture relevant? Numerology? Is any word referred to such numbers? Are the numbers coordinates? Dates? "There are 5" implies a hierarchy? An order between the 5? Can we say that there is a 5th? If so, is the 5th lower/less important (vice versa) than the 4th? Than the 3rd? Are symbols relevant? Keyboards? Are there in fact exactly 5 in general? More than 5? Can the forum members see the 5? Know the 5?

Is technology relevant? PC? Phone? Other devices? Are noises relevant? Music?
WAG --> I was thinking about the perfect fifth which by definition is the musical interval corresponding to a pair of pitches with a frequency ratio (interval) of 3:2. The term fifth comes from when bottles were 4/5 of a quart, which is the same as 1/5 of a gallon. So the statement is something like"there are 5 out of 4. Are there frequencies of 3 or 2?" (and the answer would be "3:2")

Rules? yes --> Ok so, the statement says "there" are 5. "there" could be a generic adverb or could refer to something visible to anyone who is playing. Hence, since 5,3 and 2 also refer too rules, my question is: is the forum relevant? A specific part of it? Active puzzles? Chat? PM? Can 5 be seen as a "limit"? A boundary? The maximum number of something? The minimum amount of something? If so, the max/min before something happens? If one of the latter works, are 3 and 2 number of attempts left? In general: are 2 and 3 "contained" in 5? (i.e. 5 = number of attempts before the phone blocks. 2 and 3 are the number of attempts left to the user)
Or maybe 5 = ways to do something?

Can the statement be rephrased in: "There are 5 rules. Are there 2 rules or 3 rules?" ? Or maybe: "There are 5 rules. Are there 2 or 3?" (so 3 and 2 inverted) or again: "There are 5 rules. Are there 3 or 2?" ?

Can it be determined whether there are 3 or 2? Maybe the answer cannot be exactly determined? Is the answer a number? Between 2 and 3? Lower than 2? Lower than 3? Greater than 3? Does the answer need to follow the rule that there are 5?

[WiZ]

LemonCurry

Are there three things that are called „or two“? no
Is this „or“ as in „gold“? assume no Heraldry relevant? no

Earnest

Before starting with serious question, I will try out some random guesses about the number 5: fingers on hands/feet? Relevant that it is odd? Relevant that 2,3 and 5 are all prime numbers? Fibonacci sequence relevant? Pentagon relevant? Religion/ all irrelevant so far culture relevant? yes Numerology? no Is any word referred to such numbers? Please rephrase, as you may be on to something here, but I cannot be sure Are the numbers coordinates? Dates? no to both "There are 5" implies a hierarchy? no An order between the 5? yes, there is a relevant order Can we say that there is a 5th? There is If so, is the 5th lower/less important (vice versa) than the 4th? Than the 3rd? no - it is equally important in both cases Are symbols relevant? yesish Keyboards? they have a part to play, but aren't relevant to the solution Are there in fact exactly 5 in general? There are exactly 5 More than 5? Can the forum members see the 5? yope Know the 5? yes

Is technology relevant? no PC? Phone? Other devices? no to these Are noises relevant? yes! Music? no - although music could be invoked to fulfill a similar function
WAG --> I was thinking about the perfect fifth which by definition is the musical interval corresponding to a pair of pitches with a frequency ratio (interval) of 3:2. Indeed. I even [url="https://stephenwordsmith.bandcamp.com/track/izaak-alexander-perfect-fifth"]wrote a song about it[/url] (which is more an excuse to make puns about Mandolins and clarinets) The term fifth comes from when bottles were 4/5 of a quart, which is the same as 1/5 of a gallon. So the statement is something like"there are 5 out of 4. Are there frequencies of 3 or 2?" (and the answer would be "3:2") This is pretty wild, but not correct, sadly

Rules? yes --> Ok so, the statement says "there" are 5. "there" could be a generic adverb this is the case or could refer to something visible to anyone who is playing. Hence, since 5,3 and 2 also refer too rules, my question is: is the forum relevant? no A specific part of it? Active puzzles? Chat? PM? n/a to all Can 5 be seen as a "limit"? A boundary? The maximum number of something? The minimum amount of something? no to these If so, the max/min before something happens? If one of the latter works, are 3 and 2 number of attempts left? n/a to these In general: are 2 and 3 "contained" in 5? (i.e. 5 = number of attempts before the phone blocks. 2 and 3 are the number of attempts left to the user) no
Or maybe 5 = ways to do something? no

Can the statement be rephrased in: "There are 5 rules. Are there 2 rules or 3 rules?" ? no, that would not work Or maybe: "There are 5 rules. Are there 2 or 3?" (so 3 and 2 inverted) no, this would also not work or again: "There are 5 rules. Are there 3 or 2?" ? This would work for the purposes of this puzzle, although 'rules' isn't quite the right word for what the 5 are.

Can it be determined whether there are 3 or 2? FA Maybe the answer cannot be exactly determined? The answer can be quickly and accurately determined Is the answer a number? Between 2 and 3? Lower than 2? Lower than 3? Greater than 3? no to all Does the answer need to follow the rule that there are 5? The answer acknowledges the fact that there are 5.

[Earnest]

Oohoh I liked these ones: Are noises relevant? yes! Can the forum members see the 5? yope Know the 5? yes

Christmas relevant?

Noises in the forum? Noises like: beeps? alarms? The same noise repeated x times? 5 times? 5 noises? 5 different noises? Do 2 and 3 refer to the noises as well? Is a button to be pressed in order to activate the noises? Do the noises activate automatically? Can forum members hear such noise? Is sound of keys on keyboard relevant? Is the noise a common one? CAN IT BE HEARED EVERY DAY BY ANYONE? Just by forum members? By anyone using a certain device? A PC? A phone? Others? Noises like: words said when speaking? Sound of voice? Bells?

There are 5 = there are 5 between one and another? Do the 5 repeat? If so, regularly? Constantly? Every day? Every minute? Every hour?

Relevant characteristic of the 5: they are "active"? Lauder? Different (more acute/grave)?

Would more than 5 be: creepy? Scary? Strange? Normal? Avoided? Dangerous? Suspect?

Is any word referred to such numbers? Please rephrase, as you may be on to something here, but I cannot be sure --> does any word in the puzzle statement refer to the corresponding number? Are the five clearly visible in the puzzle statement? In the forum? Are the 2 and 3?

Is the question about the 2 and 3 put in a wrong way voluntarily? Is the question misleading? Made by you to us? Made in general after declaring that there are 5? Or is it the only way in which it can be asked ? Is the answer a noun? No answer? A number? An adjective? A wish? A rime? a saying? "It depends"?

culture relevant? yes --> something like: racism? Minority discriminations? or generally: Christmas? American Culture? Tradition? Something made in families? On the streets? In TVs? Riddles?

Relevant that (at least for me) it takes 2 seconds to say "There are 5" and more or less 3 seconds to say the entire sentence "There are five. Are there three or two?"? (I timed myself xD)

[WiZ]

Christmas relevant? no

Noises in the forum? no Noises like: beeps? alarms? The same noise repeated x times? 5 times? no to these 5 noises? yes 5 different noises? and yes Do 2 and 3 refer to the noises as well? Yes, FAs lurking Is a button to be pressed in order to activate the noises? no Do the noises activate automatically? A very interesting question in the context, and I will say noish Can forum members hear such noise? They are quite capable of hearing them Is sound of keys on keyboard relevant? no Is the noise a common one? yes CAN IT BE HEARED EVERY DAY BY ANYONE? It's possible, although unlikely in the precise context I'm thinking of Just by forum members? no By anyone using a certain device? devices are irrelevant A PC? A phone? Others? n/a to all Noises like: words said when speaking? YESISH! Sound of voice? YESISH! Bells? no

There are 5 = there are 5 between one and another? no, it's an exhaustive, inclusive set of 5 Do the 5 repeat? as in, in a pattern? no If so, regularly? Constantly? Every day? Every minute? Every hour? n/a to all

Relevant characteristic of the 5: they are "active"? Lauder? Different (more acute/grave)? no to these

Would more than 5 be: creepy? Scary? no to these Strange? It would be, but that's because we've become thoroughly used to there being 5 Normal? Avoided? Dangerous? Suspect? no to these

Is any word referred to such numbers? Please rephrase, as you may be on to something here, but I cannot be sure --> does any word in the puzzle statement refer to the corresponding number? So very ORT Are the five clearly visible in the puzzle statement? Not *visible* but, again, very ORT In the forum? not exclusively Are the 2 and 3? There is a relevant aspect of the 2 and 3

Is the question about the 2 and 3 put in a wrong way voluntarily? It has been phrased in this way very intentionally Is the question misleading? Quite possibly; hopefully, by now, the reason is starting to make senseMade by you to us? relayed by me, although not invented by me Made in general after declaring that there are 5? yes Or is it the only way in which it can be asked ? yes Is the answer a noun? in part No answer? no A number? no An adjective? in smaller part A wish? A rime? a saying? no to these "It depends"? No, the answer is clear and certain

culture relevant? yes --> something like: racism? Minority discriminations? no to these, although race and minorities are relevant or generally: Christmas? American Culture? no to these Tradition? Assuming you mean this in general and not American tradition, yesish Something made in families? On the streets? In TVs? Riddles? yes to all, although not hugely relevant

Relevant that (at least for me) it takes 2 seconds to say "There are 5" and more or less 3 seconds to say the entire sentence "There are five. Are there three or two?"? (I timed myself xD) This isn't relevant, but I appreciate the trouble you went to

[LemonCurry]

I sent a PM

[Earnest]

Not *visible* but, again, very ORT --> so hearable (is it correct? In the sense of "that can be heard"?)? If so by reading the sentence? If any non mute human read the sentence? Are voice tonalities relevant? Is it different if someone sing the statement? If a child read it?
Is the answer clear even after reading the sentence in someone's own mind without speaking loud? Vowels relevant? Grammar? Spelling? Correct pronuntiation? Exercise for voice?

There is a relevant aspect of the 2 and 3: both begin with t? Both have a consonant after t? Would it work with 12? Would 12 be similar to 2? Is the answer clear when the number 5 is said out loud? Are the 5 senses relevant? 5 noise = relevant pronuntiation as "FAIV"? Of two as "Tü"?
Three as Thrē? Pentagram relevant? (Penta means 5 of something right?) Siri pronuntiation of the sentence relevant? Tongue positions? Notes used when talking?

[WiZ]

LemonCurry

I sent a PM My response is below:

Are we talking about an element of spoken language? yes Like there are five different pitches yesish - 'pitches' isn't quite right in spoken yes English no, and you use each of them once when speaking out „are there three or two?“, yes so this question is listing them up? yes

Earnest

Not *visible* but, again, very ORT --> so hearable yes! (is it correct? In the sense of "that can be heard"?)? The word is 'audible', but 'hearable' is still clear enough If so by reading the sentence? yes (out loud) If any non mute human read the sentence? No, they would have to speak it Are voice tonalities relevant? yesish Is it different if someone sing the statement? no - but there is a song that achieves a similar purpose If a child read it? no
Is the answer clear even after reading the sentence in someone's own mind without speaking loud? This hinges on whether or not they have an inner voice Vowels relevant? yes!! Grammar? Spelling? no to these Correct pronuntiation? yes Exercise for voice? no

There is a relevant aspect of the 2 and 3: both begin with t? Both have a consonant after t? no to both Would it work with 12? no Would 12 be similar to 2? no Is the answer clear when the number 5 is said out loud? no Are the 5 senses relevant? only one of them is 5 noise = relevant pronuntiation as "FAIV"? no Of two as "Tü"? yes
Three as Thrē? yes Pentagram relevant? no (Penta means 5 of something right?) right Siri pronuntiation of the sentence relevant? no Tongue positions? no (outside of the fact that it is necessarily used in pronouncing different sounds) Notes used when talking? no

[Balin]

Are vowel sounds relevant? Consonant sounds?

[Earnest]

Does the sentence "The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain" achieve a similar goal? Syllables relevant? Vowels in a syllable? Syllables composed just by one vowel? Vowels in speaking the numbers? The number 5? 2? 3? In english? Other languages? Difference between UK english, US english, Australian and Canadian English relevant? Relevant that "are there three or two" is posed as a question with question mark (I mean for accent)?

Phonic waves relevant? Recordings? Vibrations? Intonation? Is there a "scientific answer"? Is Google pronuntiation relevant? Spectrograms? Prosody?

Are numbers like 22 or 33 or numbers in which a 2 and/or a 3 appear relevant as well? E.g. 32? 23? Is the "or" relevant or can it be also "Are there 3 and 2"? Or "Are there 3? 2?" ?

[WiZ]

Balin

Are vowel sounds relevant? e! Consonant sounds? n

Earnest

Does the sentence "The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain" achieve a similar goal? no Syllables relevant? see next Vowels in a syllable? yes Syllables composed just by one vowel? I will say yes Vowels in speaking the numbers? see next The number 5? no 2? 3? yes to both In english? no Other languages? yes Difference between UK english, US english, Australian and Canadian English relevant? One moment while I say the sentence in 4 different accents... I will say no to all Relevant that "are there three or two" is posed as a question with question mark (I mean for accent)? This puzzle (and the underlying rationale) would work without the question mark, but the question mark does add a certain elegance

Phonic waves relevant? Recordings? Vibrations? Intonation? none of these are relevant Is there a "scientific answer"? Unsure what you mean by this Is Google pronuntiation relevant? Spectrograms? Prosody? no to all

Are numbers like 22 or 33 or numbers in which a 2 and/or a 3 appear relevant as well? E.g. 32? 23? no Is the "or" relevant yes or can it be also "Are there 3 and 2"? Or "Are there 3? 2?" ? no to both

[Earnest]

Wait...5 = number of vowels right? I included also "y" as a vowel but still unsure about it. So the sentence is "There are 5 vowels. Are there three or two?" right?

Is the fact that "Are there three or two" includes all the vowels when spoken relevant? I.e. a in "are", e in "there", i when "three" is pronunicated and "u" when "two" is pronunciated?

[WiZ]

Wait...5 = number of vowels right? yes! That is the significance of 'there are 5'. I included also "y" as a vowel but still unsure about it. NB This isn't English So the sentence is "There are 5 vowels. Are there three or two?" right? Yes, this is correct (and a little more detailed)

Is the fact that "Are there three or two" includes all the vowels when spoken relevant? I.e. a in "are", e in "there", i when "three" is pronunicated and "u" when "two" is pronunciated? Yes!

***** SPOILER *****

This is a mnemonic for pronouncing the vowels in Māori, of which there are five.

a as in are
e as in there
i as in three
o as in or
u as in two

Congratulations, Earnest, on the solution (I figured we didn't really need to establish the language - especially as Māori uses the same vowels as Japanese, Finnish, Latin, and a number of others...), and thank you everyone for playing!

Spoiler tag means 'It is solved now' in Māori

[Earnest]

Woow...cool one!